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tehace

mapmakers rant

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Map page - http://thc333.com/reflex/#eleventh

Direct screens - http://thc333.com/reflex/thcdm10/

 

This one turned out to be much darker than the previous one with kind of warn-out style, no eye-shooting colours this time. It is probably the closest attempt for a compact map so far. Some triple/stairs jumps but one notable is the MH celling jump that if connected with the ledge where YA is will boost you to the 50HP bubble (or that level in general), the rest you'll figure out if played enough :)

 

Map comes with a brand new UNSUPPORTED TEXTURES SIGN so people dont bother devs about AA and other stuff that might occur broken also keep in mind Im using some great but rather old textures resized in some cases so the quality might be debatable.

 

I messed up with the texturing quite a bit so it become a bore to manage them at a later stage so there are two things I have noticed

  1. You'll get missing textures because some unseen surfaces are still textured with some textures that have different location I just couldn't bother to clean them up ;p
  2. I used zero nolight and have barely any leaks.

 

 

 

chronokun likes this

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I have jumped around a bit in an early WIP version of this, and liked it very much. :)

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I have jumped around a bit in an early WIP version of this, and liked it very much. :)

 

Thanks, I have reworked the MH room quite a bit though it was too cluttered earlier :)  I've sent it to Kovak as you suggested and he said he might have a look at it so thanks for bringing that up.

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That makes 1 map per day, right? :D

 

I am extremely curious about the player feedback since I only moved around. So my feedback isn't as valuable. The map felt familiar in certain areas - aero, 1a, 3a - but it feels fractured and with lots of corridors. IMO I'd reduce the connectivity, take away some choices, make decisions about where to go next a bit harder. I liked the verticality but found the teleporters confusing (after five minutes no wonder ;)).

 

Amazing tempo and great output, compliment :)

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I fucking messed up file structure wihtin that zip the proper should be structural/pk01/pk01_wallbig01b so files that were in structual needs go to into structural/pk01, reuploaded the proper version.

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Don't think it's worth a thread, i just wanted to play around with textures and see what's ev. cool.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/1.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/2.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/3.png

 

I think Reflex can look REALLY good if mappers spend some time making more...detailed brushes, use some props and ofc good textures.

 

Regards

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Don't think it's worth a thread, i just wanted to play around with textures and see what's ev. cool.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/1.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/2.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/3.png

 

I think Reflex can look REALLY good if mappers spend some time making more...detailed brushes, use some props and ofc good textures.

 

Regards

 

Your textures are even more broken than mine ;p both of us are using the old difuse/specular/normal model while reflex uses PBR

http://www.marmoset.co/toolbag/learn/pbr-conversion

 

if you want to play more keep in mind that "<shootermans> for now, the alpha channel is roughness, and the RGB channels are specular"

 

I love reflex editor but its like photoshop 2.0 where you have to do everything manually. How many maps have you made, have you made a corridor out of 600 brushes (think qw aero) and than decided to oh well move it 20units to the left (yep it doesnt apply to remixes but its just an easy example as the map consist of shitton of brushes)? It should be like 2minutes you select the group you had your corridord built into move it 20 units, than select whatever groups are connected and resize them to fit, but right now you have to manually select those 600 brushes one by one (+finding all those 1unit ones) and move them all than you have to select whatever is connected and do the same, the whole process takes a day. This doesnt really encourage making more detailed brushes especially if you take into consideration the fact that the real feedback on maps is really sparse.

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I think the map layout has great potential. Not entirely sure about item placement tho. Also i think the standard textures loook way better than something like this.

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I love reflex editor but its like photoshop 2.0 where you have to do everything manually. How many maps have you made, have you made a corridor out of 600 brushes (think qw aero) and than decided to oh well move it 20units to the left (yep it doesnt apply to remixes but its just an easy example as the map consist of shitton of brushes)? It should be like 2minutes you select the group you had your corridord built into move it 20 units, than select whatever groups are connected and resize them to fit, but right now you have to manually select those 600 brushes one by one (+finding all those 1unit ones) and move them all than you have to select whatever is connected and do the same, the whole process takes a day. This doesnt really encourage making more detailed brushes especially if you take into consideration the fact that the real feedback on maps is really sparse.

 

thats it. i wont build up any further maps coz of that. its not a joke what we are doing here

we are spending tons of our free time for creating maps for nothing right now. coz nobody cares

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Don't think it's worth a thread, i just wanted to play around with textures and see what's ev. cool.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/1.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/2.png

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/885543/3.png

 

I think Reflex can look REALLY good if mappers spend some time making more...detailed brushes, use some props and ofc good textures.

 

Regards

 

we can't sa we're at normal maps stage - http://graphics.cs.brown.edu/games/SteepParallax/compare.jpgso as you can see from that screenshot we're in like 99 still ;p

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thats it. i wont build up any further maps coz of that. its not a joke what we are doing here

we are spending tons of our free time for creating maps for nothing right now. coz nobody cares

 

to be fair: most maps being done aren't exactly good. I feel like most maps are squashed out in 5 minutes, punched together and released. Proper playtesting requires a good amount of time .... and now look at how many maps have to be playtested. And now imagine 80% of them are shit.

 

Dunno how mapping in Q3/CPMA/QL works.... but in CS you generally need quite some time to just finish a proper, playable and competitive layout. By that time the usual Reflex mapper would have already done 10 maps. And all suck.

 

Regards

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to be fair: most maps being done aren't exactly good. I feel like most maps are squashed out in 5 minutes, punched together and released. Proper playtesting requires a good amount of time .... and now look at how many maps have to be playtested. And now imagine 80% of them are shit.

 

Dunno how mapping in Q3/CPMA/QL works.... but in CS you generally need quite some time to just finish a proper, playable and competitive layout. By that time the usual Reflex mapper would have already done 10 maps. And all suck.

 

Regards

if thats what you are thinking i am really off here

 

i agree to 95% of any maps being bullshit posted in the forum or reflexfiles, but the 5% suffer of that the most

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to be fair: most maps being done aren't exactly good. I feel like most maps are squashed out in 5 minutes, punched together and released. Proper playtesting requires a good amount of time .... and now look at how many maps have to be playtested. And now imagine 80% of them are shit.

 

Dunno how mapping in Q3/CPMA/QL works.... but in CS you generally need quite some time to just finish a proper, playable and competitive layout. By that time the usual Reflex mapper would have already done 10 maps. And all suck.

 

Regards

 

According to steam I have 548h in reflex, granted like 30% of that time is me just leaving the game open in the background while doing other things but I feel like your 5min accusation is inappropriate.

 

Problem is you cant improve if you dont know what is wrong. I've seen like 5 comments on this forum saying some maps are shit and even than it was just that without proper explanation. There is almost nobody to provide valuable feedback. You can imagine two scenarios.

 

1. GAMER: this map is shit.

MAPPER: FU, go play your aero for the next 20 years.

end result: no decent maps.

 

2. GAMER: I dont like this map because the balance is off, RA is too close to MH and its too easy to control both, the corridors are too narrow and you cant move properly at higher speeds, etc.

MAPPER: let me rework that, and see how it will play out.

end result: better maps, maybe not at aero level but still.

 

Its kind of contradictory to say that you dont know how mapping in QL works yet claim 80% of the maps are shit. Additionally its very different in reflex than it is in CS, the cpma gameplay is very fast, the maps are small go try playing aero in CS and see how that works out.

 

Than there is also the editor, reflex editor allows you to playtest everything in real time so it speeds up the process of making instantly playable maps. I can make a layout in one day, tune it in the next, add colours and focus on visualisation in the 3rd day. If I would have people working with me on the same map once the layout is done it would be even faster but its not 5min. Than we can play and tune whatever is wrong or just drop it completely if it turn out to be bad. This is what reflex offers atm quick iterations. I would be at like thcdm20 if I would publish every map I made. I just scrap them if they dont feel decent even for myself.

 

On the other hand you request detailed brushes that takes fucking ages to make and than another millennium to adjust. Go ask Fjorggs to make some serious layout adjustments on his level I suppose that maybe he will finish them before the official reflex release, just maybe.

 

I can keep adjusting all my previous maps to no end because they're all simple, but I dont have any feedback to work with. i really think we should rather try to help each other as we have rather unique opportunity to work together if 'both sides are willing to cooperate'. The engine is unfinished so you cant make the maps look good atm you can put textures with wrong maps but they will display as almost flat images, its all about the gameplay therefore we should focus on that aspect, yet some people dont want to play somethign that doesnt look 'good'.

 

If I post a map here Im not looking for people to prise my work, Im looking for a serious discussion on how to improve, yet I find almost nothing, except for kovak/entik that occasionally drop some useful informations and people like aeon/devil that can tell you something useful about brushworks.

 

You have held that contest for a duel map right? What you should do is to post every map that were submitted with every judge opinion on it, that should be something solid to work with at least for those few maps that were included. There - http://zero.robotrenegade.com/forums/MapCore2014LDContest/Scorecards.zipget this file to get the idea. IMO if you just announce the winner it would all be pretty much pointless. I guess more people entered this contest in hope of some feedback than the money.

def likes this

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According to steam I have 548h in reflex, granted like 30% of that time is me just leaving the game open in the background while doing other things but I feel like your 5min accusation is inappropriate.

 

Man, don't take everything word-by-word. It was obv. an exaggeration.

 

Its kind of contradictory to say that you dont know how mapping in QL works yet claim 80% of the maps are shit.

 

That doesn't even make sense. Since when do i need to know how something is done, in order to judge it? You don't need to know how earphones are made in order to decide if their sound sucks or not. That's like saying: you don't know how to map in hammer, you can't judge a map.

 

Mapping works the same in every game: you create a layout based on the gameplay of the game -> you built it. If every mapper would actually work on a solid layout first, BEFORE squashing out a map and demanding feedback on it, not 80% of the maps wouldn't be shit, but maybe only 50%. 

 

But then again that's a lot of work, right? Why spend hours and hours first creating a solid layout, instead of punching something together and expect massive feedback so you can THEN start working on obv. flaws, that would have otherwise not even been there in the first place.

 

 Additionally its very different in reflex than it is in CS, the cpma gameplay is very fast, the maps are small go try playing aero in CS and see how that works out.

 

This literally doesn't even make any sense .... i'm not even sure why you'd say something like that in the first place. That's just....what?!

 

 

 

Not going to comment on the rest..... just one thing: go ask def how long it took to actually get feedback on dp4. How many duels to even START getting a grasp on what's wrong with the map? How many people? And that was just ONE map. Now look at the amount of maps posted. Most of them simply not good. Do you think people have time for that, nor the motivation?

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Man, don't take everything word-by-word. It was obv. an exaggeration.

 

Its funny because you're the one taking thing word by word, I just put a figure to give you a grasp on how time consuming making maps is, I used 5min. the same way you did to express the notion that its tiny amount of time.

 

 

That doesn't even make sense. Since when do i need to know how something is done, in order to judge it? You don't need to know how earphones are made in order to decide if their sound sucks or not. That's like saying: you don't know how to map in hammer, you can't judge a map.

 

Mapping works the same in every game: you create a layout based on the gameplay of the game -> you built it. If every mapper would actually work on a solid layout first, BEFORE squashing out a map and demanding feedback on it, not 80% of the maps wouldn't be shit, but maybe only 50%. 

 

But then again that's a lot of work, right? Why spend hours and hours first creating a solid layout, instead of punching something together and expect massive feedback so you can THEN start working on obv. flaws, that would have otherwise not even been there in the first place.

 

I would say in quite a few situations. When you start creating music you start to look at other tracks from a completely different angle because you learn about the sound, same goes for everything that involves creating something. See you can tell that the sound of those earphone sucks but you're not able to articulate the specifics because you have no idea about that topic, that leads to a situation where whoever made those earphones have no idea what went wrong especially that some people reported that they liked it. If you would gave the same earphones to a sound composer he would pin point the issues with detailed specifics and next iteration of those headphones would be better. Your example fails miserably in what you wanted to convey since if you apply that to our current situation in reflex it equals to a situation where you give maps for play-testing to a completely newcomers and than you end up putting 4xquad in a duel map.

 

Also I have never said that you have to know how to map in order to judge a map, you need to know the game rules, every feedback that is in the category 'doest feel right' is no feedback at all. This is the worst category of clients in the design world - http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

 

And no, mapping doesnt work the same in every game, if you say so you're really narrow-minded. Its like saying that dentist and cardiologist is the same because they're doctors. Yep they're from the the same field like games in our example but they specialise in very different aspect of that field that both have their own rule set. You generalize too much, creating a layout based on the gameplay is true but vary greatly from game to game even if it is in the same genre like fps or even arena shooter. You just stated two most obvious things that Im not even sure why you have mentioned them. "2. you build it"? seriously? I thought they materialize out of thin air just like $ from FED.

 

You're standing in a position where you accuse us of not putting enough effort, while this is simply not true and you dont want to put any effort yourself into helping to solve that situation, in how many topics have you actually told the author that you dont like his map because of this and that? You demand efforts from the creators yet dont want to give any back? I suppose you have forgotten that reflex have a very small community atm and if it wasnt for those certain individuals that put their time to try and create something all you would be able to do is still play cpm3/bdm3 (those are great maps and plays well but we need more), every professional level designer doesnt give a fuck about reflex so if we would not rise people from our own community we might never get anything solid done, you should rather be grateful to those that invest their time to try and learn instead of calling everybody a bunch of amateurs that shouldnt even touch the editor in the first place.

 

 

This literally doesn't even make any sense .... i'm not even sure why you'd say something like that in the first place. That's just....what?!

 

This means that the game rules are so different that you cant port maps from different games even if they're both in the same genre because they will simply not work. I have no idea what is so hard to understand here.

 

 

Not going to comment on the rest..... just one thing: go ask def how long it took to actually get feedback on dp4. How many duels to even START getting a grasp on what's wrong with the map? How many people? And that was just ONE map. Now look at the amount of maps posted. Most of them simply not good. Do you think people have time for that, nor the motivation?

 

So bad I was interested in your thoughts on those issues I've mentioned. Instead it looks like you just nitpicked some random stuff.

 

Its funny because I've talked with def earlier and we've spoke about the map making. Apparently he needed 6 people to playtest dp4 and Im glad it turned out great and I bet he could have pinpointed the issues within 2-3h of seeing high level players playing it. You should not exaggerate the amount of time needed to make the adjustments (do not confuse with making the map final) especially that you lessen all the efforts from the mapmakers.

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Its funny because you're the one taking thing word by word, I just put a figure to give you a grasp on how time consuming making maps is, I used 5min. the same way you did to express the notion that its tiny amount of time.

 

 

You didn't use anything. I said "I feel like most maps are squashed out in 5 minutes" ( obv. exaggeration ) and you took this literally word-by-word saying "I feel like your 5min accusation is inappropriate". Not going to discuss semantics with you.

 

Only read the first few paragraphs of the rest realizing you simply put words in my mouth and bend statements however you want. Sorry. No point in "discussing" like that.

 

Regards

 

Edit: actually read the rest and yep: more bending and putting words into my mouth. 

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You didn't use anything. I said "I feel like most maps are squashed out in 5 minutes" ( obv. exaggeration ) and you took this literally word-by-word saying "I feel like your 5min accusation is inappropriate". Not going to discuss semantics with you.

 

Only read the first few paragraphs of the rest realizing you simply put words in my mouth and bend statements however you want. Sorry. No point in "discussing" like that.

 

Regards

 

Edit: actually read the rest and yep: more bending and putting words into my mouth. 

 

Im not sure how you communicate, maybe its better that you dont provide feedback. SO in a conversation of two people:

1. "I feel like most maps are squashed out in 5 minutes"

2. "I feel like your 5min accusation is inappropriate"

No. 1 - is using 5min as a expression of 'little time' but No. 2 - takes it literally (why?) just because he put another number in there just to show some contradictory value as 'huge amount of time'? It looks like its you that is 'bending' things around.

 

Yet you skip all the important issues and focus on that irrelevant figure. Can you point out what I have put into your mouth exactly? I would be glad to clarify that.

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can anyone close the thread for at least a day, its escalating

 

noooo... I might have the map in default dev textures to post in there today

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As long as the discussion doesn't end in a flame war, I'm leaving it open for now. Reflex isn't at a point where spending several months working on details for a map, as textures, assets, even lighting can change at any time with a new build. AFAIK the only one who's doing something like that is me, and I prolly wont finish it for a long time. Focus right now is on gameplay, while keeping the looks decent.

tehace likes this

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