chewz

instant weapon switch

30 posts in this topic

Is there any specific reason why reflex has chosen to use delays on the weapons?. All true oldskoolers will not like it, not that they are your target market but if you want the game to be as free and flowing as possible, why have any delays in the first place?.

 

This is honestly the first game I've seen promise from since qw, it will never beat it (imo) unless it adds things like instant weapon switch. I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind it - and please don't come back with the it takes more skill to time the weapons nonsense. it's not about that, there's less freedom to play in the style that a game like this demands. Yes I am from QW and it may sound like I'm trying to turn it into QW, but really I'm not. This sort of game imo requires instant.

 

If instant won't be in the base game are there any plans to incorporate a game mode where everything is instant?. What do people think about instant switch?.

 

off topic but LG/ION is underpowered and just feels 'off' to use. The beam feels too fake/straight and something feels very unnatural about it.

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I personally like instant switching, but a lot of oldschool players come up with "planning the right weapon before the combat takes place requireds more skill" bullshit.

The wrong thing about the ion cannon is that the beam actually bends when you move the mouse quickly enough. Look at it closely.

namejs2002 and chewz like this

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You mean from the base of the shaft or at the end?. I can't see much although it does move and not totally static. I'd rather it move more, a very slight lag effect perhaps like previous quakes. It may not help with the beam not being centred. I have gunmodels off but the ion beam comes from the right, rockets from rl is from middle. Is there a command I can use to help centre it more?.

 

those oldskoolers you speak of can't be THAT oldskool then :). But your right it is bullshit. It's worse as reflex has chosen to swap slightly quicker than q3/ql almost to the point the 'planning the weapon before combat' argument is not as valid. May aswell make the full switch to instant. That would also make sense then to do as you have and slow the reload time of rail.

 

Planning a weapon combination is ok, but to think on your feet and make a decision instantly and get the feedback you need is much more rewarding, you're still planning but just getting everything instant.

Raidakk and DEZ like this

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i don't really see any reasoning except you're used to instant switch. it's balanced between the speed of QW instant switch and a strategic slow switch.

 

besides balance, another problem with instant switch is that then players who have switch fire scripts have an advantage. then people who go a step further and make it switch back to burst/axe after firing so they don't drop ammo have even more of an advantage, then everyone that joins needs to setup a script before they can play without being disadvantaged.

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If there absolutely has to be switch delay then they could at least introduce Xonotic/Nexuiz like weapon comboing by decreasing fire cooldown delay which currently in Reflex hinders weapon switching. As it is now it feels like you're all set with just a rocket launcher, you got no kind of reward or advantage for having other weapons besides that. Rocket+Bolt vs just a Rocket, makes barely any difference in most of the situations for example. Comboing only (properly) works for Shaft->something and that's limiting the usage of the overall arsenal. 

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If I try to switch weapon and shoot and nothing comes out I get really upset and start +forward axe heheheh

snow and kaiske like this

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You mean from the base of the shaft or at the end?. I can't see much although it does move and not totally static. I'd rather it move more, a very slight lag effect perhaps like previous quakes. It may not help with the beam not being centred. I have gunmodels off but the ion beam comes from the right, rockets from rl is from middle. Is there a command I can use to help centre it more?.

 

those oldskoolers you speak of can't be THAT oldskool then :). But your right it is bullshit. It's worse as reflex has chosen to swap slightly quicker than q3/ql almost to the point the 'planning the weapon before combat' argument is not as valid. May aswell make the full switch to instant. That would also make sense then to do as you have and slow the reload time of rail.

 

Planning a weapon combination is ok, but to think on your feet and make a decision instantly and get the feedback you need is much more rewarding, you're still planning but just getting everything instant.

Well I am talking about the 1999 players. The problem with the slow switching, is that other game types would suffer, and not everyone wants to play strategically. If you want to use tactics, feel free to do so, but don't ruin the fun for the all-aim-no-brain players. I am a weak player, but sometimes I get LG to Rail combos in CPMA when I play with my younger bro, which is cool (that wouldn't be possible with ultra slow weapon switch) I believe that game types like CTF and CA require fast weapon switching.

 

Now about the problem with the ion cannon. I took a screenshot and from what I see, it is caused by this stupid weapon bob. When the weapon sways to the side, the beam is still pointing to the centre of the screen, which causes this unrealistic effect.

Ion.png

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The reason for the delay is to fix certain combos (mainly ic to bolt) which were a bit overpowered in cpma. I'm fairly sure changes will be made to it though because adding switch delays to all guns because of one or two op combos doesn't make sense either.

Reflex can't surpass qw because of 100ms switch delay? We sure are good at overexaggerating on this forum.

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I think railgun and lg buzz sound from weapons is needed to be tested at 75ms and 150ms switch time.

 

Having some reaction time to the rail buzzing sound is a really big deal, and an inherent anti snowballing mechanic. You want a bunch of snowballing to encourage aggressive play however. I can't really offer an adamant perspective on this since i've only really played pql and didn't see how the switch time affected vql balance outside of tournies.

 

I think the more final decisions should be made when ranked matchmaking is out and there's a good handful of statistics at varying levels of play.

 

@raidakk

that just looks like true lightning 0, p sure all quakes just have that as a graphical thing and the actual lightning hits exactly where the crosshair is, although i'm not sure about warsow.

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at times of cpm beta it was discussed many times, and after gameplay changes many players quit playing it (most of them from poland). buzz was about lack of tacktical edge in game and all about learning few weapon combos that let you win. i don't know any articles in english was writen but well know is "Nawrócony" by Krogoth

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The only thing I don't like about the weapon switch time atm is the grenade-launcher.. In QW you can use rocket- and grenadelauncher like it was a single weapon. You are able to shoot grenades instantly at all times, which I really like a lot.. But I agree that LG to rail was op and kinda stupid. maybe give each weapon a different draw-time? Sounds a bit stupid but I think I would like it :D

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I think the delayed switch actually adds something to the game, cheap lg-rg combo's were used too frequently and required little risk but gives high payoff.

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i don't really see any reasoning except you're used to instant switch. it's balanced between the speed of QW instant switch and a strategic slow switch.

 

besides balance, another problem with instant switch is that then players who have switch fire scripts have an advantage. then people who go a step further and make it switch back to burst/axe after firing so they don't drop ammo have even more of an advantage, then everyone that joins needs to setup a script before they can play without being disadvantaged.

CPMA CPM has a solution that could be ported to the Reflex.

>the penalty for switches from G/MG to non-spawn weapons

>(200ms switch from G/MG to non-spawn weapons.

>Does not apply to first switch so you can grab a weapon after respawning and use it immediately.)

So weap/axe scripts aren't relevant.

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After watching HAL's CPMA stream couple days ago I can't say I wouldn't want fastswitch. It just makes the game look even more fast and hardcore. Ofcourse there are some problems with like IC to bolt combos coming too easy, but on the other hand it could be just feature of the game, both sides have it anyway. Current switch time is also good and everything don't need to be like in CPMA, but also doesn't need to be different just for the sake of it.

LoNeZiLLa likes this

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I agree with that topic :)

 

In UT2004 weapons switch is instant switch and it's a pleasure to be that fast in a fast fps.

 

However, I understand that it change a bit the gameplay, change the rail to the rl could be really overpowered indeed (or may be more fun ?)

That's why I don't play Quake Live, the weapons switch is sooooo sloooooow damn...

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I don't feel too strongly about either side but would like a shortening of fire cool down when you switch to stake gun. Like for example, rocketlauncher to stake gun. I would like to be able to rocket jump and then shoot a stake for a platform real fast. I understand the stake guns use as a weapon, so a player could fire a rocket and immediately hit you with a stake. But if they miss, the stake gun has the longest cool down time, so that combat decision would leave the player in a weak position. I think it would balance itself out (while making the stake gun a little more useful).

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I used to love instant weapon switch in quake world.  But after playing q3 / quake live for a while I finally started to like delayed switch much better.

 

It's true that is makes things slower paced and gives you less freedom, but it is still great fun using combinations to kill opponents.

 

For example in quake live you have fast shooting guns like the plasma and lightning gun.  You switch quickly from those to either a rocket or rail gun.  So the combinations should be plasma first then rail, or lightning first then rocket.  If you do it the other way around you get a large delay, because rocket and rail are slow shooting weapons.

 

So you end up with some strategy in the kill combinations.  But I still understand why people love insta-switch.

DraQu likes this

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I think there should be delay but every switch from weapon X to weapon Y should have a different time which is best to balance the combos.

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What about certain Rules for the switch from weaponA to weaponB. instead of this time just be dependent on WeaponA it would be dependent on both now. 

     A
B    w01  w02  w03  w04  w05  w..
w01 (0.4) 0.3  0.8  0.2  0.5       seconds
w02  0.5 (0.2) 0.6  0.25 0.6       seconds
w03  0.8  0.2 (0.5) 0.2  0.55      seconds
w04  ...  ...  ...  ...  ...       ...
w05
LoNeZiLLa likes this

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What about certain Rules for the switch from weaponA to weaponB. instead of this time just be dependent on WeaponA it would be dependent on both now. 

     A
B    w01  w02  w03  w04  w05  w..
w01 (0.4) 0.3  0.8  0.2  0.5       seconds
w02  0.5 (0.2) 0.6  0.25 0.6       seconds
w03  0.8  0.2 (0.5) 0.2  0.55      seconds
w04  ...  ...  ...  ...  ...       ...
w05

 

Yeah that is what I was talking about. We should have times depinding on both weapons during the switch.

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Bumping this because I'd really like to see a faster weapon switch. Not necessarily instant. Slower is fine for duels but for example in ATDM / Clan Arena the slow switch really turns me off in contrast to the fast movement. Maybe you could make it like callvote fast switch or something people would be able to toggle on/off. Just my two cents.

//edit: Now that I think about it, I wouldn't really like fast switch from ion cannon to bolt rifle, it's a pretty overpowered combo :)

Edited by zokolate
kaiske likes this

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