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So when someone starting a lockhud tournament now? I will be waiting. Maybe this will deter a lot of people from starting one ;[

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unfortunately it's still not as nice as an actual lockhud... I'm not sure anyone would be so much of an asshole that they would code their own widgets to time any items they pickup, but it's still possible to do so by tracking your own armor value / color

but people might stop using the timer excuse for the lack of duel tournaments; would be exciting to see something run again :D

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14 hours ago, klyph0rd said:

unfortunately it's still not as nice as an actual lockhud... I'm not sure anyone would be so much of an asshole that they would code their own widgets to time any items they pickup, but it's still possible to do so by tracking your own armor value / color

but people might stop using the timer excuse for the lack of duel tournaments; would be exciting to see something run again :D

I wouldn't even get the point in cheating... To be good at reflex take forever... to put all that time and effort in, to test yourself in a tournament only to cheat, kind of defeats the purpose.

If someone did go through all that trouble, they are confirmed a piece of shit.

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15 hours ago, klyph0rd said:

unfortunately it's still not as nice as an actual lockhud... I'm not sure anyone would be so much of an asshole that they would code their own widgets to time any items they pickup, but it's still possible to do so by tracking your own armor value / color

but people might stop using the timer excuse for the lack of duel tournaments; would be exciting to see something run again :D

They will.

tangy likes this

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Well, anybody who knows lua and wants timers can still have them (in a kinda limited form), as klyph0rd pointed out. Have a widget that starts a 25 second countdown whenever your armor suddenly increases by 50/100/150. Alternatively, start a countdown by keypress. (And that might actually be a sane middleground between no-clock-at-all and all-respawn-times-on-the-map-on-display-for-everybody.)

Lockhud (the possibility for server owners to define what widgets are allowed to run (and *not* which ones you can't run, this cannot be done)) will be the only measure short of removing the UI scripting that will give you a guarantee that players don't use timers.

But it's not like the fact that anybody who wants timers can have them has stopped tournaments from being run. There have been tournaments, and good games were had. Turns out timers don't magically make you a quake god.

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45 minutes ago, Mizzu said:

Lockhud (the possibility for server owners to define what widgets are allowed to run (and *not* which ones you can't run, this cannot be done)) will be the only measure short of removing the UI scripting that will give you a guarantee that players don't use timers.

Why not make this global? We should have widgets in a repository that you can pull widgets from. So the widgets are trust worth for lockhud. Sure if you want to cheat there's always a way :(

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8 hours ago, Mizzu said:

Well, anybody who knows lua and wants timers can still have them (in a kinda limited form), as klyph0rd pointed out. Have a widget that starts a 25 second countdown whenever your armor suddenly increases by 50/100/150. Alternatively, start a countdown by keypress. (And that might actually be a sane middleground between no-clock-at-all and all-respawn-times-on-the-map-on-display-for-everybody.)

Lockhud (the possibility for server owners to define what widgets are allowed to run (and *not* which ones you can't run, this cannot be done)) will be the only measure short of removing the UI scripting that will give you a guarantee that players don't use timers.

But it's not like the fact that anybody who wants timers can have them has stopped tournaments from being run. There have been tournaments, and good games were had. Turns out timers don't magically make you a quake god.

Then you run a timer externally, either as an overlay or on your second monitor. Where there is a will there is a way, no point in restricting LUA any further.

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8 hours ago, seekax said:

Then you run a timer externally, either as an overlay or on your second monitor. Where there is a will there is a way, no point in restricting LUA any further.

I disagree. To me, manual timers only seem like a cheat right now because the people I play with have agreed not to use them. If this were a bigger, less personal game, I would just assume that anything the game allows you to make with the tools it provides is not a cheat unless explicitly stated otherwise. So at the very least, I hope the developers eventually set very clear standards as to what is allowed and what isn't. Realistically I think the best way to send a clear message that something isn't allowed is to prevent people from doing it without using external programs or modifying the game files.

(To be clear, I'm fine with the current situation and I think it makes sense to leave widgets unrestricted for now. But if/when the game becomes bigger, with more serious competitive play between people who don't know each other, the idea of a gentleman's agreement not to use timers will break down.)

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13 hours ago, matt_au said:

I disagree. To me, manual timers only seem like a cheat right now because the people I play with have agreed not to use them. If this were a bigger, less personal game, I would just assume that anything the game allows you to make with the tools it provides is not a cheat unless explicitly stated otherwise. So at the very least, I hope the developers eventually set very clear standards as to what is allowed and what isn't. Realistically I think the best way to send a clear message that something isn't allowed is to prevent people from doing it without using external programs or modifying the game files.

(To be clear, I'm fine with the current situation and I think it makes sense to leave widgets unrestricted for now. But if/when the game becomes bigger, with more serious competitive play between people who don't know each other, the idea of a gentleman's agreement not to use timers will break down.)

The message has been sent by restricting the item pickup times. People who haven't gotten the message yet won't care about LUA being completely locked down either, it's not like there's any risk involved in having a side program running. You'll lose all customizability for the sake of sending a message which will ether be ignored or has already been understood. We'll just have to get over the fact that the possibility of someone using some sort of timer in online matches will always be there.

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3 hours ago, seekax said:

The message has been sent by restricting the item pickup times. People who haven't gotten the message yet won't care about LUA being completely locked down either, it's not like there's any risk involved in having a side program running. You'll lose all customizability for the sake of sending a message which will ether be ignored or has already been understood. We'll just have to get over the fact that the possibility of someone using some sort of timer in online matches will always be there.

For people who know that pickup times used to be exposed but were then deliberately hidden, sure, it's probably obvious that automatic timers based on stack changes would be against the intended spirit of the game. But for one thing, not everyone coming into the game will know that, and for another, that doesn't apply to manual timers (i.e. timers that you press a button to start). I don't know what seems obvious to other people, but for me, manual timers definitely wouldn't feel cheaty if it weren't for the agreement I have with the other AU players.

edit: I guess the distinction between casual/competitive rulesets kind of undermines my first point. Anyone who plays both modes will presumably realise that timers are deliberately restricted in the competitive ruleset. The point about manual timers still stands though.

(Also, you talk about 'LUA being completely locked down', but what I imagine happening is widgets being uploaded to the workshop, and either approved or denied for competitive use. Obviously that would be too time-consuming if it were a matter of thousands of players having their widgets checked by a few developers, but it seems like there are some ways around that problem. For tournaments, you wouldn't need pre-approval -- just make sure everyone uploads their widgets so that the admins can check them. For matchmaking, maybe you could give everyone the opportunity to check the widgets of their opponents, and to flag anything dodgy.)

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omg a discussion involving timers, on these very forums? who would have thunk it

ED: this thread is supposed to be about starting more duel tournies... please start more duel tournaments:(

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23 minutes ago, matt_au said:

For people who know that pickup times used to be exposed but were then deliberately hidden, sure, it's probably obvious that automatic timers based on stack changes would be against the intended spirit of the game. But for one thing, not everyone coming into the game will know that, and for another, that doesn't apply to manual timers (i.e. timers that you press a button to start). I don't know what seems obvious to other people, but for me, manual timers definitely wouldn't feel cheaty if it weren't for the agreement I have with the other AU players.

edit: I guess the distinction between casual/competitive rulesets kind of undermines my first point. Anyone who plays both modes will presumably realise that timers are deliberately restricted in the competitive ruleset. The point about manual timers still stands though.

(Also, you talk about 'LUA being completely locked down', but what I imagine happening is widgets being uploaded to the workshop, and either approved or denied for competitive use. Obviously that would be too time-consuming if it were a matter of thousands of players having their widgets checked by a few developers, but it seems like there are some ways around that problem. For tournaments, you wouldn't need pre-approval -- just make sure everyone uploads their widgets so that the admins can check them. For matchmaking, maybe you could give everyone the opportunity to check the widgets of their opponents, and to flag anything dodgy.)

Considering that you said that the current way LUA is handled in the competitive ruleset would only be a problem if this game grows your workshop approval idea is kinda pointless. Checking the widgets your opponents use in online tournaments would require your opponent to be honest about the widgets they use, even though i suppose it's possible for the devs to report the widgets a player uses to the other player. Except that is where the external programs come into play. Since they don't interfere with the game itself i don't think many new people would call it a cheat and it's not like you can bust anyone for it either, so what you propose is an awful lot of effort which still provides no security.

I haven't really done much with LUA but unless the damage statistics are available during the match i don't think there is a way to write a fully automated timer, so manual timers are the only thing we'll have to deal with and i think that might be a compromise i can handle. The main issues with timers were that you couldn't delay items and that your position was given away when you picked an item up, the counting to 25 part was never the important part of item timing. Since the best option we seem to have to keep people from using manual timers is saying how unethical it is it might be something we'll have to let slide. People who compete in tournaments can time items to the second anyways.

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Just now, seekax said:

Considering that you said that the current way LUA is handled in the competitive ruleset would only be a problem if this game grows your workshop approval idea is kinda pointless. Checking the widgets your opponents use in online tournaments would require your opponent to be honest about the widgets they use, even though i suppose it's possible for the devs to report the widgets a player uses to the other player. Except that is where the external programs come into play. Since they don't interfere with the game itself i don't think many new people would call it a cheat and it's not like you can bust anyone for it either, so what you propose is an awful lot of effort which still provides no security.

I've been writing pretty roughly so I probably wasn't clear, but what I mean is that your active widgets would automatically be uploaded to the workshop, and open to scrutiny by other players. I agree that doing it manually/optionally would be dumb. (Not sure what you mean about external programs -- if you mean that people would code their own automatic timers as a separate program, that just seems obviously cheaty and easy to write a clear rule against, if not to actually enforce.)

 

Just now, seekax said:

I haven't really done much with LUA but unless the damage statistics are available during the match i don't think there is a way to write a fully automated timer, so manual timers are the only thing we'll have to deal with and i think that might be a compromise i can handle. The main issues with timers were that you couldn't delay items and that your position was given away when you picked an item up, the counting to 25 part was never the important part of item timing. Since the best option we seem to have to keep people from using manual timers is saying how unethical it is it might be something we'll have to let slide. People who compete in tournaments can time items to the second anyways.

Yeah, I reckon I would be fine with that. I've often thought that manual timers would be a decent compromise, pretty much for the reasons you give. What I really don't want is a fuzzy situation where something is technically allowed but frowned upon. That just won't work properly with a larger community.

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13 minutes ago, matt_au said:

I've been writing pretty roughly so I probably wasn't clear, but what I mean is that your active widgets would automatically be uploaded to the workshop, and open to scrutiny by other players. I agree that doing it manually/optionally would be dumb. (Not sure what you mean about external programs -- if you mean that people would code their own automatic timers as a separate program, that just seems obviously cheaty and easy to write a clear rule against, if not to actually enforce.)

 

Yeah, I reckon I would be fine with that. I've often thought that manual timers would be a decent compromise, pretty much for the reasons you give. What I really don't want is a fuzzy situation where something is technically allowed but frowned upon. That just won't work properly with a larger community.

Wouldn't that require coding knowledge? And even if you report it, you still need manual verification.

By external program i just mean a simple program which starts a timer when you press a button, basically a manual timer. Automatic timers would have to interfere with the game and could be detected, manual timers can't, my whole point with external programs was that manual timers can always be done and you can't really do anything about it. I thought you were talking about manual timers only, maybe that made my responses a bit confusing.

There are always things which are frowned upon by at least a fraction of the community. +back players, p90 in CS, etc.. I think the customizability LUA offers will bring in more players than fighting a war against timers which can't be won anyways. Personally i'd like the game best without any timers at all like CPMA did it, but that system requires a gentlemen's agreement to work, which is why CPMA never had a shot at becoming something bigger.

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Sounds like our opinions aren't actually too far apart. I'm not in love with the workshop-widget idea, but I do still think it might be workable, so I'll respond to this part:

39 minutes ago, seekax said:

Wouldn't that require coding knowledge? And even if you report it, you still need manual verification.

Lots of players would have the required level of knowledge, and anyone else who cared enough could just run the widget and see what it does. Your second point is true, but that at least seems more managable than trying to check every single widget. I don't really know how the CSGO Overwatch system works, but I can imagine a system vaguely like that might work -- basically giving experienced/trusted players some incentive to check flagged widgets. Of course, you'd have to auto-ignore players who were found to have done a lot of unjustified flagging.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a great idea, just not obviously crazy, and perhaps worth thinking about. For matchmaking, the default might be to allow all widgets, but check for breaches of the rules and respond accordingly (e.g. penalise players who are obviously deliberately breaking the rules, and otherwise just blacklist their widget and give them a warning). For tournaments, the admins would be able to insist that all widgets are pre-submitted for approval, and then run a 'whitelist' system on the day.

 

39 minutes ago, seekax said:

By external program i just mean a simple program which starts a timer when you press a button, basically a manual timer. Automatic timers would have to interfere with the game and could be detected, manual timers can't, my whole point with external programs was that manual timers can always be done and you can't really do anything about it. I thought you were talking about manual timers only, maybe that made my responses a bit confusing.

Ah right. I would still feel more comfortable with that, because at least there's no ambiguity around whether it is cheating or not. But as you say, we would still ultimately be relying on trust, which is a problem.

 

39 minutes ago, seekax said:

There are always things which are frowned upon by at least a fraction of the community. +back players, p90 in CS, etc.

Yep, and the reason that doesn't bother me is because those people are obviously being 'scrubs' in the David Sirlin sense, restricting themselves (and trying to restrict others) with imaginary rules that just prevent them from exploring the game to its full depth -- so I'm happy to ignore them. I guess the difference here is that I'm worried the no-manual-timers sentiment might be dominant among the core Reflex crowd, and without some explicit decree one way or the other from the developers, players would then be left with the choice of artificially handicapping themselves by refusing to use the tools the game provides, or doing something that half of their opponents would consider not just 'cheap', but an actual cheat.

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Recent and relevant discussion: http://www.reflexfps.net/forums/index.php?/topic/3554-suggestion-workshop-widgets/#comment-27879 Regarding the approval process, I'd like to highlight my own comment in that thread: Put widgets in workshop and simply let server owners/the player base decide what widgets are allowed, they same way the server owners/the playerbase should also be the ones writing the rulesets (and not the developers...). This does not mean that everyone has to use the same hud since the degree of customisability within one individual widget can be very high (options screen) + if there are for example 50 different weapon bar widgets in popular use, server owners can just allow all of them with a list.

 

If server owners/the playerbase don't want any restrictions and want to allow the player client to run any widgets (the way it is now), they should be able to do so.

9 hours ago, matt_au said:

For matchmaking, the default might be to allow all widgets, but check for breaches of the rules and respond accordingly (e.g. penalise players who are obviously deliberately breaking the rules, and otherwise just blacklist their widget and give them a warning)

How would that work? Should players be allowed to see what kind of widgets others are using? Should there have to be a admin online at all times? You know, you can't automate this. I don't think it is programmatically possible to detect all widgets that do a certain thing due to the power of lua (people would find ways around it). Firefox recently tried a similar thing where they tried to implement a system that automically blacklists "malicious" addons. Failed horribly. Read this if you're interested. It cannot be done. That's why a lockhud system can only be *inclusive* and not exclusive, meaning a whitelist of wanted widgets can be implemented (easily), but a blacklist of all not wanted widgets (for example those that time for you) is impossible because there are essentially infinite variations of them. It would be great if some lua wizard can quickly comment on this.

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13 hours ago, matt_au said:

Sounds like our opinions aren't actually too far apart. I'm not in love with the workshop-widget idea, but I do still think it might be workable, so I'll respond to this part:

Lots of players would have the required level of knowledge, and anyone else who cared enough could just run the widget and see what it does. Your second point is true, but that at least seems more managable than trying to check every single widget. I don't really know how the CSGO Overwatch system works, but I can imagine a system vaguely like that might work -- basically giving experienced/trusted players some incentive to check flagged widgets. Of course, you'd have to auto-ignore players who were found to have done a lot of unjustified flagging.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a great idea, just not obviously crazy, and perhaps worth thinking about. For matchmaking, the default might be to allow all widgets, but check for breaches of the rules and respond accordingly (e.g. penalise players who are obviously deliberately breaking the rules, and otherwise just blacklist their widget and give them a warning). For tournaments, the admins would be able to insist that all widgets are pre-submitted for approval, and then run a 'whitelist' system on the day.

I suppose that would work, at least for widgets. It probably sounds repetitive by now, but that doesn't solve the external manual timer problem. It's closing the front door while the backdoor is still wide open.

Yep, and the reason that doesn't bother me is because those people are obviously being 'scrubs' in the David Sirlin sense, restricting themselves (and trying to restrict others) with imaginary rules that just prevent them from exploring the game to its full depth -- so I'm happy to ignore them. I guess the difference here is that I'm worried the no-manual-timers sentiment might be dominant among the core Reflex crowd, and without some explicit decree one way or the other from the developers, players would then be left with the choice of artificially handicapping themselves by refusing to use the tools the game provides, or doing something that half of their opponents would consider not just 'cheap', but an actual cheat.

That's where the community will have to adjust. It's easy to get mad about something one may consider cheap, but if there's no solution to the problem one'll just have to get over it. I mentioned the CPMA no timer setup earlier, i've gotten over the fact that that ruleset can't be enforced without a gentlemen's agreement, the same applies to manual timers and gentlemen's agreements obviously don't work in large games.

3 hours ago, Mizzu said:

Recent and relevant discussion: http://www.reflexfps.net/forums/index.php?/topic/3554-suggestion-workshop-widgets/#comment-27879 Regarding the approval process, I'd like to highlight my own comment in that thread: Put widgets in workshop and simply let server owners/the player base decide what widgets are allowed, they same way the server owners/the playerbase should also be the ones writing the rulesets (and not the developers...). This does not mean that everyone has to use the same hud since the degree of customisability within one individual widget can be very high (options screen) + if there are for example 50 different weapon bar widgets in popular use, server owners can just allow all of them with a list.

So whenever i switch servers i'll have to deal with half of my GUI not working? Also writing my own GUI would be completely pointless since it wouldn't work anywhere. The custom rulesets have been discussed before as well, it would just splinter the community, considering that our community is only in the triple digits i don't think we can afford that. On a competitive level there needs to be an even playing field, no matter which league or server you play on, if you want the game to grow.

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I'll read the linked thread when I get a chance, but just quickly:

12 hours ago, Mizzu said:

How would that work? Should players be allowed to see what kind of widgets others are using?

Yep, I don't see why not. Widgets would be automatically uploaded to the workshop, so that other players could a. scrutinise them and b. use them.

And seekax I think we 85% agree. The difference seems to be that I would be willing to put up with unenforceable rules so long as they were universally known and unambiguous (and enforceable on LAN). Thanks for discussing it with me :)

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