Duwang-

Ion Canon needs a buff, seriously...

49 posts in this topic

I understand that newer players might only hit around ~16-24% IC but can we not agree on the fact that IC has been totally removed from the game and that it is used maybe 10% of the time? I no longer find it useful in any way what so ever. Why use IC when Rockets have such a large blast radius now and have such insanely large knock back? I swear every player uses Rockets 70-80% of the time maybe switching over to peck them with the Bolt Rifle for additional damage. There really is no real opportunity to use the IC, I can't stress how awkward it feels to instead of comfortably hold my position and use IC... +back and spam Rockets in their general direction hitting them once bouncing them then hitting another 2-3 directs easily. It's more fun to use every weapon at your disposal instead of just spamming Rockets and hitting a Bolt every time they waltz into your sight line. Can we not nerf the Rocket's knockback BY A LARGE MARGIN? Maybe have the Grenades actually deny chokes? Have the IC's knock back somewhere in between where it used to be and where it is now, because it feels non existent? Am I not the only person who feels this way? IC just doesn't feel right anymore...

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It probably tries to take into account the fact that you can instaswitch to bolt or rocket from IC. There could perhaps be changes to weapon switch system rather than the weapons themselves. Current setup is way too rocket centric. 

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47 minutes ago, Smilecythe said:

It probably tries to take into account the fact that you can instaswitch to bolt or rocket from IC. There could perhaps be changes to weapon switch system rather than the weapons themselves. Current setup is way too rocket centric. 

I think its balanced this way because people want to be able to face hug into shaft so that they never have to use the shaft themselves

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Agree with this. You can totally walk in to the IC beam and not only lose very little health but also move significantly forward.

IC should do more dmg and have stronger pushback.

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36 minutes ago, spessu_sb said:

Agree with this. You can totally walk in to the IC beam and not only lose very little health but also move significantly forward.

IC should do more dmg and have stronger pushback.

dmg is fine just make it so that you can only move slowly towards it with 100% and move towards with 30-40 or so

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yes pls gibe buffo.

 

was thinking, that perhaps the issue (often quoted) with the insta-rail is to not allow insta switching. maybe faster-than-quake, but not instantaneous. 

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2 hours ago, Sky said:

yes pls gibe buffo.

 

was thinking, that perhaps the issue (often quoted) with the insta-rail is to not allow insta switching. maybe faster-than-quake, but not instantaneous. 

You do know that is what we have right?

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give Kyto, fuglaa and Rama (and who else of the highest skill player play atm on a daily basis and participate in the tournaments) a version in which they can set the IC settings ground/air kb, shaft size and what else in dispute, let them fiddle around with the settings for 2-3 weeks and all the drama will have an end.

@fuglaa when you guys started to play CPM I had to laugh so much, why don't we just all start to play CPM again instead of Reflex :D (or for me for the first time...)

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13 minutes ago, Aletheia said:

give Kyto, fuglaa and Rama (and who else of the highest skill player play atm on a daily basis and participate in the tournaments) a version in which they can set the IC settings ground/air kb, shaft size and what else in dispute, let them fiddle around with the settings for 2-3 weeks and all the drama will have an end.

@fuglaa when you guys started to play CPM I had to laugh so much, why don't we just all start to play CPM again instead of Reflex :D (or for me for the first time...)

current exp is good though placebo is so real, idk what is real anymore

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12 minutes ago, fuglaa said:

current exp is good though placebo is so real, idk what is real anymore

don't I remember correctly that you (might have been someone else) said that ground kb might be a bit to much (on reddit perhaps?)

my post was not even sarcastic or a joke if we have even every week a slight change it takes forever to balance it out if you guys would have a widget and a server&ruleset where you can experiment, it would be probably done in a week as far as your guys work/training ethic goes ;) (3 weeks was generous or a maximal assumption)

to be democratic there could be a vote on the forum afterwards...

just time wise to solve the balance it's the best possible solution I see...

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9 minutes ago, Aletheia said:

don't I remember correctly that you (might have been someone else) said that ground kb might be a bit to much (on reddit perhaps?)

my post was not even sarcastic or a joke if we have even every week a slight change it takes forever to balance it out if you guys would have a widget and a server&ruleset where you can experiment, it would be probably done in a week as far as your guys work/training ethic goes ;) (3 weeks was generous or a maximal assumption)

to be democratic there could be a vote on the forum afterwards...

just time wise to solve the balance it's the best possible solution I see...

This experimental on paper seems good but I've not really played it enough

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18 minutes ago, fuglaa said:

This experimental on paper seems good but I've not really played it enough

kb ground and air exactly the same seems not only illogical (what is no argument as we are in a afps) it seems bad as it makes no difference if you jump or not when you get hit by a shaft and I would think it should make a difference as it reduces dogging skill requirement.

to use an analogy it is like rocket jumping without the need to jump...

so then I think it is not that illogical to argue for a different kb ground/air as ground and air have a different friction...

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Except it does make a difference? Go into game and test it - try and walk off of the bolt @ dp5 whilst be shafted, then try and walk up from red whilst being shafted

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21 hours ago, Aletheia said:

kb ground and air exactly the same seems not only illogical (what is no argument as we are in a afps) it seems bad as it makes no difference if you jump or not when you get hit by a shaft and I would think it should make a difference as it reduces dogging skill requirement.

to use an analogy it is like rocket jumping without the need to jump...

so then I think it is not that illogical to argue for a different kb ground/air as ground and air have a different friction...

It does make a difference because of ground friction. Basically, touching the ground slows you down, so in practice, if the power of ground and air knockback is the same, it'll have more effect in the air. You have to stay in the air (aka bunny hop) to maintain momentum because of the same principle. Perhaps somebody else could explain how it works exactly, I'd probably butcher the physics.

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You can control your X and Z vectors easily, just press wasd - you can't control Y, last time I checked we didn't have jetpacks ;)

 

Want less knock back? Move into the shaft. Want more? Move away. Want the same? Move perpendicular

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22 hours ago, Pill_ said:

It does make a difference because of ground friction. Basically, touching the ground slows you down, so in practice, if the power of ground and air knockback is the same, it'll have more effect in the air. You have to stay in the air (aka bunny hop) to maintain momentum because of the same principle. Perhaps somebody else could explain how it works exactly, I'd probably butcher the physics.

I took the kb value as absolute and not as a variable that is then modified by ground friction but yeah that was my whole point that it should be like that so actually if it is how you sentenced it, it's what I thought as logical...

thx for the correction... :)

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21 hours ago, fuglaa said:

You can control your X and Z vectors easily, just press wasd - you can't control Y, last time I checked we didn't have jetpacks ;)

 

Want less knock back? Move into the shaft. Want more? Move away. Want the same? Move perpendicular

perpendicular would mean circular as the shaft follows your sideways movement perpendicular movement would be a perfect circle (otherwise kb would have an aggregated increase) except the point from which the shaft is radiated moves with you... ;) but I guess it was what you meant/implied...

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It makes absolutely no sense to buff the RL to the extent that they did in experimental, and then nerf the Ion Cannon as well.

In Competitive, the IC shoots every 44ms, and in Experimental, it shoots every 50ms.

It never needed a rate-of-fire nerf, it just needed its knockback tweaked.

The current ratio for damage dealt RL:IC:Bolt is something like 4:1:1 (in Competitive). In Experimental, it's like 5:1:1 and I'm being generous. This leads me to another concern, why would you want to buff the RL when it's already 4:1:1 ?? Plus, without instant weapon swap, the exp. IC will see even less use because it forces you to have the weapon out beforehand, and why would you do that when the it's not going to stop anything, mine as well keep RL out. 

The ratio needs to be a bit more even in my opinion. 

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On 9/3/2016 at 5:13 AM, fuglaa said:

I think its balanced this way because people want to be able to face hug into shaft so that they never have to use the shaft themselves

hahaha, that's all I see in this game.

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4 hours ago, LoNeZiLLa said:

The current ratio for damage dealt RL:IC:Bolt is something like 4:1:1 (in Competitive). In Experimental, it's like 5:1:1 and I'm being generous. This leads me to another concern, why would you want to buff the RL when it's already 4:1:1 ?? Plus, without instant weapon swap, the exp. IC will see even less use because it forces you to have the weapon out beforehand, and why would you do that when the it's not going to stop anything, mine as well keep RL out. 

The ratio needs to be a bit more even in my opinion. 

It seems to me bolt and shaft are much easier to change the balance of than rocket launcher, as the community does not react as adversely to changes in their damage / kb.

Because of this, it would make the most sense to me to reach a point where rockets are well designed not because they are balanced in damage with other weapons (which we've had at a few points, but only because the kb was bleh), but because they are inherently skillful in a manner that is enjoyable and challenging to play both with and against. I personally feel the kb changes and splash changes are a step closer to this.

Subsequent to having better designed rockets, bolt and shaft can be tweaked in damage, kb, radius, etc. to create a balanced triad of weaponry that is the hallmark of this weapon set.

I think people are quite aware that rockets are overpowered right now, so I'm not worried about this balance being the final choice for the game. I AM very worried about moving away from improvements to rockets just to satisfy short term concerns about weapon balance while the game is still in alpha.

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9 hours ago, klyph0rd said:

It seems to me bolt and shaft are much easier to change the balance of than rocket launcher, as the community does not react as adversely to changes in their damage / kb.

Because of this, it would make the most sense to me to reach a point where rockets are well designed not because they are balanced in damage with other weapons (which we've had at a few points, but only because the kb was bleh), but because they are inherently skillful in a manner that is enjoyable and challenging to play both with and against. I personally feel the kb changes and splash changes are a step closer to this.

Subsequent to having better designed rockets, bolt and shaft can be tweaked in damage, kb, radius, etc. to create a balanced triad of weaponry that is the hallmark of this weapon set.

I think people are quite aware that rockets are overpowered right now, so I'm not worried about this balance being the final choice for the game. I AM very worried about moving away from improvements to rockets just to satisfy short term concerns about weapon balance while the game is still in alpha.

I don't mind the RL being buffed, I just think that the buff was too much. Nerfing IC and Bolt on top of that just made the balance WAAAAAY worse.

I would like to see the Rockets have a blast radius of 115u. You could even keep it at 120u, but you would have to buff the IC and Bolt much more to keep the balance right.

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I think i'm around 3:2:1 on exp. It'd be nice if we had data from every game played so we could look at the differences in damage between comp and exp

Aletheia and Kyto like this

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