Duwang-

Ion Canon needs a buff, seriously...

49 posts in this topic

I find myself relying on shaft more than rockets as it is darn easy to have barely missed the enemy model (especially in midair instances) and quite often on the endgame scoreboard my rockets, ion and bolt are all at a fairly similar damage count. Although my rockets arent really that great in recent days it still seems easy to have it top my damage on the board even though I tend to focus ion a lot more, definately does seem skewed towards rockets to some extent? And im yet to even try the current experimental changes which seem to gimp ion more i hear.

My RL tends to sit around 20% but mostly less, Ion about 30-40% and bolt easily 50%+ (with 10 or more hits) but yeah RL still tops the damage in most cases even though i feel i didn't do all that great with them.

Edited by Profanum
Forgot to add more info
LoNeZiLLa likes this

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From what I've seen, at all skill levels rockets are usually how people deal most of their damage although the disparity between rl and bolt/ic tends to get smaller as you look at higher skill players. Even when I watch the top level players, though, I still see rl dominating in damage especially when people play on exp ruleset. From what I can tell, high level players tend to have around 2-3:1:1 rl:ic:bolt damage stats on the competitive ruleset and then 3-4:0.75:1 on exp ruleset. 

Then again, that's just what I've seen from streams and tournaments. It would be nice if more guys like profanum and fuglaa commented here so I could know for sure if what I've seen is actually true. 

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i guess we will see in dp masters cup how it will turn out, coz it will be played experimental ruleset

Electro likes this

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8 hours ago, def said:

i guess we will see in dp masters cup how it will turn out, coz it will be played experimental ruleset

if the dp2 hud is used can you please have the scoreboard changed to default one so we might reference the accuracy statistics from the VOD?

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21 hours ago, def said:

i guess we will see in dp masters cup how it will turn out, coz it will be played experimental ruleset

rocket heavy pool will just force confirmation bias. dp5 isn't unexpected to go 4k rockets 500 500 hitscan, dp9 and dp4 the geometry kinda stops the full shaft fights so I'd expect high rocket dmg there too.

my bet is rockets > bolt > ic for dp masters. What we really need is data from a range of maps 

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it might not be a very educated question...: the total amount of dmg dealt with RL isn't it also (I can't imagine otherwise) depending on the availability on maps?

how many maps are there where you have more ICs or BRs than RL? none? (which is played in competition (pelease correct me if I am wrong))

I think if I am correct that must be considered statistically concerning total dmg...

of course if you don't IC-BR combo spawn kills (or the map geometry would favor BR and there are also no maps I have in mind (played competitively) which would favor BR to an extent that you would be willing to choose the BR reload time over a possible Rocket hit/or spam/ or deny position with a Rocket etc. and then maybe if the situation is appropriate change to BR) mostly RL is the weapon people are running around with first in most Arena shooters...?

it seems to me that if BR total dmg gets higher the voices of the "free 80 dmg" would scream and if IC total dmg would get higher and someone like Terifire would play in tournaments the "shaft-whoring" comments would be all over the place...

somehow it's a enigma how the developers could reduce total RL dmg without people being very unhappy with the result.

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2 hours ago, fuglaa said:

rocket heavy pool will just force confirmation bias. dp5 isn't unexpected to go 4k rockets 500 500 hitscan, dp9 and dp4 the geometry kinda stops the full shaft fights so I'd expect high rocket dmg there too.

my bet is rockets > bolt > ic for dp masters. What we really need is data from a range of maps 

What I think will happen is that players will get punished for jumping towards the RA platforms on dp4 and dp9 by the IC, but only because of the increased air-knockback.

Which is only one of the many things it's supposed to be good at. The main thing that the IC should be able to do is allow you to hold down a superior position. It shouldn't be so powerful that it's impossible for the player in the inferior position to take the superior one from you, but they definitely should have to put in a lot of work in order to do so (they should have to put in more work than you do, because after all, you're positioned better).

Example of how it currently works:

  • You're on Aerowalk, sitting at the top of RA stairs with the IC held. Your opponent is at the bottom of the stairs (closer to the GA than the stairs) with the RL held. Your opponent proceeds to run and jump up the stairs straight at you, meanwhile, you're shooting him with IC. It will take your opponent less than a second to close that medium range gap. It will take you one second to deal a maximum of 120dmg with the IC, that is, if you hit 100% of your shots. But the thing is, he can shoot the 3rd or 4th step from the top and deal a good amount of damage (and knockback) to you. He could of fired this rocket when he first started to jump up the stairs, giving him enough time to shoot again once he makes it close to the top. Not only will he out-damage you by the time he reaches the top of the stairs, the rockets will pop you into the air, setting you up for a few follow up shots. 

Now this next one should basically guarantee you a frag, but don't you worry.. it won't

  • Once again, you're on Aerowalk, with the IC out, positioned in-between the Mega and the YA. Your opponent is near the upper RL, towards the top of the jumppad. He decides to get some speed and swoop in like batman. Now, two things can happen.. You could prefire and guess the exact spot he's going to jump from, and hope he doesn't see your IC beam and jumps right into it. You'll then give him a gentle lift over to the Bolt Rifle. Or you could wait for him to jump and initialize his incredibly smart plan of swooping down and into your IC. Since he's descending so fast, the knockback being applied won't be nearly enough to stop him, and the slower firerate won't exactly help. The amount of knockback applied is going to depend on the amount of damage you do and the enemies movement is also taken into account. Since he's moving as fast as he is, and is also descending, you won't be able to hit him enough times to deal enough damage for the knockback to even mean anything.

 

DraQu and promEUs like this

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6 hours ago, fuglaa said:

rocket heavy pool will just force confirmation bias. dp5 isn't unexpected to go 4k rockets 500 500 hitscan, dp9 and dp4 the geometry kinda stops the full shaft fights so I'd expect high rocket dmg there too.

my bet is rockets > bolt > ic for dp masters. What we really need is data from a range of maps 

I wouldn't say dp9 or dp4 are as rocket heavy as dp5.

Either way if you want to see how the damage distribution is you can't exclude a map simply because it is expected to be rocket heavy, that's like saying "Oh this is expected not to confirm the theory so we can't use this". It's not that much different from confirmation bias.

LoNeZiLLa and Grybzt like this

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10 hours ago, Terifire said:

I wouldn't say dp9 or dp4 are as rocket heavy as dp5.

Either way if you want to see how the damage distribution is you can't exclude a map simply because it is expected to be rocket heavy, that's like saying "Oh this is expected not to confirm the theory so we can't use this". It's not that much different from confirmation bias.

Well I'm only saying that we should compare before and after rather than just looking at the stats in the tourney. dp5 comp->exp the rocket dmg still goes up.

KangaJoo likes this

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Yeah, and if the devs don't already have their own internal way of looking at basic meta data like average damage per weapon on different maps, they should probably fix that. 

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On 9/15/2016 at 1:13 AM, def said:

i guess we will see in dp masters cup how it will turn out, coz it will be played experimental ruleset

How did it turn out? I completely forgot it was today, and haven't watched the VODs yet.

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In my opinion Turbopixel just has to reduce rocket splash radius from 120 to 115 and reduce ground acceleration slightly. Also increase IC air knockback slightly and revert latest Stakegun changes.

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I agree, rockets do feel dominant in this game, I would much prefer if rockets were nerfed and IC was buffed to make it usable, jump into any server and everyone is pretty much spamming rockets 99% of the time

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1 hour ago, banReflex said:

What is Ion's ground KB in competitive and what is it in experimental?

Not sure what it is in Competitive, but in Experimental it's 1.7. [46.3]

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Does anybody know what DPS is for IC in reflex? What is it in competitive? And what is it in experimental?

I played some a1v1 the other day and noticed LG wasn't very effective. I used to play Quakelive before (but quit after the sept 2014 update), so that is my reference. I think LG used to be 140 DPS there, though I think that was before they nerfed LG damage to 6-6-6.

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Ion Cannon is fine where it is. If anything... it needs to be nerfed even more (not damage). The ability to hold a player stationary in the air is quite high. It stops a charging player 100% dead in his tracks and is an almost guaranteed kill if the player uses a jump pad or rocket jumps vs an accurate aimer.

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IC feels too weak now; it's either the different rate of fire or too low ground knockback.

Rockets on the other hand are way too strong, there are no longer situations where IC > RL because the splash radius makes the rockets almost undodgeable. Also the amount of damage relative to distance of the impact is ridiculous, you can "miss" a shot by 2-3 robots width and get 30-60 dmg.

Nades hitboxes are perhaps a bit too small now and they still don't work as areal denial.

Plasma is strong which is fine but it's too easy to hit. Maybe a slower rate of fire, slower projectile speed and higher damage balls would work (QL stylish?).

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Maybe just nerf the freaking RL, would make IC more useful. 

 

Slower projectile speed, less splash dmg, bigger splash knockback. Boom. Fixed. 

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Rocket speed is good and should not be lowered. Otherwise it would become almost impossible to hit midairs. Also do not forget how fast players can move while in midair. Like I said.. I would just reduce splash radius to 115.

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