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tangy

Thoughts on current stake gun

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I'm not a developer, but I am curious about what the community thinks of the current stake gun now that's its been in the game for a little while. What do you think should be changed, should it be changed, or should it even be implemented into normal play.

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  • Should be a weapon of it's own, not a bolt/burst/shotty replacement.
  • Faster cooldown 800-1000ms, fuck it being a high risk weapon like bolt.
  • More visible projectile trail similar to grenades, more straight and different colour ofc.
  • The colour of the weapon pickup is confusing and too similar to shotgun. It could be white for example, because no other pickup uses white.
  • Add weapon and ammo items for map editor.
  • Don't force it into maps that don't have it by default.

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Still too easy to hit and too low damage,either make it high risk high reward weapon, either like smileyshithe sayd - 800-1000ms reload with 100 dmg would work too,damn with that reload we even could implement Painkiller grenade-stake combo

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I personally am more in support of making stake gun something similar to bolt rifle.

The problem with decreasing the cycle time to 800-1000ms is that it becomes far too useful at close range which should not be the primary area of use for the stake, especially with how slow the projectile speed currently is. It is very difficult to hit an aware opponent at long distance with the current projectile velocity and so making the cycle time faster would make the weapon too powerful at close range, and still unviable at long range. At close range the stake functions essentially as hitscan and the last thing we need is a fast cycling hitscan high dmg weapon, like pre-nerf bolt.

I am more in favor of keeping the max ammo count low, increasing the projectile velocity (maybe 3500), and signficantly decreasing the rate of fire (so that it is similar cycle time to bolt rifle)

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Maybe could be worth try to make it works like revolver in csgo. Where the gun is almost not used at all. But here who know. 

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7 hours ago, Xytaglyph said:

The problem with decreasing the cycle time to 800-1000ms is that it becomes far too useful at close range which should not be the primary area of use for the stake, especially with how slow the projectile speed currently is.

Things would be different if you could place stake into intellectually placed spawns rather than just replace a weapon with a different role and design decision per map. When it replaces bolt for example, it assumes the role of the bolt and then you have to think how it could revisit that lacking role better in every map that has bolt with each of their own specific intentions. This is a very backwards way of implementing a weapon into a game and the issue comes from that you want it to behave like bolt. It needs to be a weapon of it's own and we have to figure out what role it could have from there on out, not which already established roles it could replace. 

7 hours ago, Xytaglyph said:

It is very difficult to hit an aware opponent at long distance with the current projectile velocity and so making the cycle time faster would make the weapon too powerful at close range, and still unviable at long range.

Rocket is also nonviable at long range, but very dominant in close range - so dominant in fact that most maps demands two rocket spawns to be balanced. Rather than having to have two rockets everywhere, shouldn't there rather just be two weapons that are somewhat equal in close range assuming the efficiency in usage is also equal?

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I almost exclusively play the game in stake mode now.

I would say just replace bolt with stake, like its current implementation, but I think it should be up to mappers to decide what to do with the gun. I think it's a more interesting weapon than bolt overall, but they each have their own pros & cons.

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2 hours ago, king said:

I almost exclusively play the game in stake mode now.

I would say just replace bolt with stake, like its current implementation, but I think it should be up to mappers to decide what to do with the gun. I think it's a more interesting weapon than bolt overall, but they each have their own pros & cons.

Some maps already have spawns for both stake and bolt, which also work in regular rulesets. You need to bind game [key] weapon 9 to be able to wield the weapon though.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=764552988

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I liked it before TP increased it's projectile speed. In my opinion it's post shot reload time should be slightly lower than bolt reload and it should deal 80 or 90 damage. That way it can be used for trickjumps, it wouldn't be overpowered but it would be usefull to prefire corners and corridors (similar to plasma's role). It would not be possible to 1 shot spawnkill and it would be better in mid range situations if competing with bolt. Not sure how it would play out when you play shotgun vs stake on mid or low range. Maybe shotgun's reload time could get reduced a slight bit to make it more usefull vs. close range rockets, mid range stake and also better against close range IC and GL.

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Stake or gtfo. This needs to me more than cpma 2.0.

As for how it should be? It should be so, that it is taken onto account that because its projectile-based weapon, it is alot harder to hit than say Bolt. Therefore it should deal damage around 100-120 atleast, because otherwise it's just useless. There needs to be some reason why stake should be used. If stake does damage low amount and is hard to actually hit with, why would it be used?

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17 minutes ago, spessu_sb said:

Stake or gtfo. This needs to me more than cpma 2.0.

As for how it should be? It should be so, that it is taken onto account that because its projectile-based weapon, it is alot harder to hit than say Bolt. Therefore it should deal damage around 100-120 atleast, because otherwise it's just useless. There needs to be some reason why stake should be used. If stake does damage low amount and is hard to actually hit with, why would it be used?

Because projectiles are faster than rockets and reload is faster than bolt. I imagine it as a weapon which mixes up some advantages of bolt and rockets.

Edit: Yes I agree that stake should not be a replacement weapon. It should have it's own weapon and ammo spawns. Maybe make it's main color black and give it's viewmodel some small white accents to make it look somewhat badass while keeping Reflex's minimalistic plastic shiny look.

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Stake is the reason I purchased the game.  I was disheartened when they removed it, and ecstatic when they brought it back.

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There's two reoccurring arguments against Stake:

  • It's too versatile.
  • It conflicts with the role of another weapon.

- If the versatility of a weapons usability is an issue, then Rocket should be the mother of all issues - versatility can't get any more worse than that. We should be fixing rocket with this logic, yet we're for some reason not. 

- If a conflict of weapon roles is an issue, then I think you're blind. There's duplicate rocket spawns on almost every map, to me that shows that there's demand for additional roles for close/mid range weaponry - because why else would you then have two rockets on a map. How people are satisfied with this balance-norm is beyond me. 

Stake should in my opinion pursue a role that is about as versatile, reliable and useful as rockets with similar reload time. Compared to Rocket, stake would be easier to hit direct shots with in all ranges, but that's a simple trade-in for stake not having splash damage. You would also still have to lead your aim, so it's not quite as useful as Bolt in long range either - missing a predictive shot is enough risk stake needs imo.

Warlord Wossman and spessu_sb like this

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7 hours ago, Smilecythe said:

There's two reoccurring arguments against Stake:

  • It's too versatile.
  • It conflicts with the role of another weapon.

Personally never seen anyone say the stakegun is "too versatile".
I think the double rockets on pretty much every duel map is more indicative of the weapon balance in the game rather than the roles the weapons fulfill. Up till now rockets have always been by far the strongest and most versatile weapon in the game (too good to allow full control of / only give to one player) and it only came with 10 shots (this is pre-ammo boxes) Now that the rocket/ic/bolt relationship is most more solid (in my opinion anyway) and we have ammoboxes, I think it's much more relevant to experimenting with a 9th weapon, and only 1 rocket spawn.

I'm experimenting with 1 rocket atm on a static discharge experimental version - Not sure how it is atm.

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1 hour ago, promEUs said:

Personally never seen anyone say the stakegun is "too versatile".
I think the double rockets on pretty much every duel map is more indicative of the weapon balance in the game rather than the roles the weapons fulfill. Up till now rockets have always been by far the strongest and most versatile weapon in the game (too good to allow full control of / only give to one player) and it only came with 10 shots (this is pre-ammo boxes) Now that the rocket/ic/bolt relationship is most more solid (in my opinion anyway) and we have ammoboxes, I think it's much more relevant to experimenting with a 9th weapon, and only 1 rocket spawn.

I'm experimenting with 1 rocket atm on a static discharge experimental version - Not sure how it is atm.

IMO 1 rocket is much worse in experimental since the main utility of IC against rockets was the ability to keep the enemy at bay due to knockback, which is now reduced too much for that to work and the slightly increased DPS doesn't really help in that scenario. Basically if you get enough speed you can easily get close enough for the IC to be negligible against rockets.

Sure you can try if the stake will be a viable counter to the 1 RL (and it probably is) but without the stake in the current experimental ruleset the RL is even more important.

Edited by Kyto

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I really can't imagine a powerful stakegun which can compete with rockets. Rockets will always be superior because of splash, firerate and the ability to trickjump easily (and gain a lot of speed easily).

Edit: I think the important point is just that both weapons fulfill different roles. Stake is rather a 'sniper weapon' with high risk (you can't knock your enemy back, you can't block chokepoints with splash, you may miss your shot and get rushed because of reload time..) and rockets and IC are great for rushing. Personally I am a fan of the old stake projectile speed because with lower projectile speed it's less risky and more easy to prefire corners: just shoot stake shortly before your enemy peeks around and back away right after. If you have the right range to your opponent, the projectile will reach him as soon as he comes around the corner (prefire with delayed hit) . It felt a bit like a high damage singlefire plasmagun.. stakejumps are also more similar to plasmaclimbs than to rocketjumps. Maybe we can differeciate a bit more between stake, PG, IC and Shotgun roles. My suggestions:

-keep rockets like in current experimental

-revert latest stakegun projectile speed and make it 100 or 99 damage.

-keep plasma as it is (good for mid and long range spam)

-IC: add damage falloff (7 - 5 dmg per hit depending on range) and keep high knockback (it should be a lot less dmg than plasma, because with IC it's easy to hit, easy to rush/hunt down enemies and easy to use it's knockback to hinder enemies movement.). This way it should still be possible to pin enemies in the air, it should be possible to escape from high range IC fights, it should be strong on low to mid range but still be counterable by shotgun on low range and counterable by plasma on mid - high range in stationary fights.

-reduce shotgun firerate and increase it's damage (maybe add damage falloff for ranged shots -> make it possible to counter close range rocket and IC rushers (role: close range high damage (maybe 100 dmg on 5 meter range), less and less damage on higher range) or reduce reload time slightly and add a slight damage falloff.

I think this way each weapon is powerful in it's purpose.

 

 

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Currently, we have atleast 3 weapons that are most effective at close range: Rockets, Plasma, and Shotgun (Possibly Melee)
2 that are used most at medium range: Ion Cannon, and Rockets
and 1 truly viable option for long range: Bolt Rifle

This doesnt include spamming and area denial obviously, but if you can imagine hypothetically fighting in a large empty.map, the players would most defninitely use rockets when they were at close range, ion cannon at medium, and bolt at long, simply because they are the most reliable options at their respective ranges.

Thus, I feel that since medium and close range already have the largest variety of viable options, we should be looking for something to compete for the long range role, which is currently dominated by Bolt.

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I havent played much with stake gun when i first posted here. But i did some games recently and its really fun gun to play with sadly its more used just for fun and "trolling". I can join easy the  bandwagon for replacing bolt with stake gun. Why? You cant have both guns in game. Its just dumb. There is not much reason use stake gun before bolt on long range bcz you have way smaller chance to hit opponent. The 20 plus damage is really not worth try. Its much more reasonable use it for close fights but this is dumb having another gun on close fights "only" and could be way too overpowered when ppl really master the gun. Its different story when there is no bolt. And you have only stake gun. Rails/sniper guns are in every game. But stake game could be unique gun for reflex.


TLRD  fuck railguns they are everywhere anyway, make unique guns for reflex  :wub:

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On 10/21/2016 at 9:59 PM, Xytaglyph said:

Thus, I feel that since medium and close range already have the largest variety of viable options, we should be looking for something to compete for the long range role, which is currently dominated by Bolt.

stakes should explode and do splash damage after a few seconds then, good long range area denial + spam because grenades don't go that far

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I am a fan of the stake gun and I'd like to see it find a place in Reflex, eventually replacing the bolt rifle.  And while it's a good start that it has its own ruleset, unfortunately it still doesn't have a place in the game with the current weapon balance.  So I'd like to encourage the devs to consider implementing some much needed changes to the experimental_stake ruleset.  Here are my suggestions:

stake: 100 hp dmg/0 armor dmg, 10% more velocity, 1000 ms reload, exploding stakes a la goochie sound fun, too: 50 splash dmg in a small radius

rocket: 90 dmg direct, 10% less velocity

ion: 6 (point-blank) - 5 (close) - 3 (medium+) dmg, same range

plasma: same

shotgun: gone

burst: bigger spread, +1 more dmg per pellet

melee: 80 dmg

mega health: 35-45 second timer after pickup

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When will the stakegun get it's final model? Maybe even replace one RL on each map by stake. Because atm RL could aswell be a spawn weapon: it's easy to get and almost impossible to deny. But yeah, if every map is going to become 1 RL only, all weapons need to be somewhat usefull. At the moment I think SG is still underpowered.

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So there doesn't seem to be much interest in discussing the stake gun ruleset any further.   If this is the case I fear the stake gun will be lost to obscurity.  Devs, would it be possible to expose the cvars for weapon behavior in the experimental_stake ruleset like you have done with experimental_plus?  That way we could set up a server so the stake-lovers could try to tweak this into a viable weapon.  I'd gladly offer my support to help make this happen.

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