Eldrek

Game Mode Problems

22 posts in this topic

So with matchmaking on the way, I think it's a good time to start talking about gamemodes and the flaws surrounding them. Right now almost every mode is seriously broken in some way. Let's make a list of the problems. I'll split them into two categories: flaws/bugs and missing features. Note that this isn't really the place to dream up new modes, its more focused on fixing the ones we currently have.

 

FFA

                 flaws/bugs

  1. Joining players are automatically added to the game, causing afk joins while they load the map.
  2. Disconnecting players are lagged out instead of removing them, causing afks and hitbox/model disconnect
  3. no autoremove for afks, again causing afk players..

                 missing features

  1.  Gonna include workshop sorting issues here, because finding good maps is pretty important to the pub ffa experience

TDM

                   flaws/bugs

  1. No teamsize or lock team options. 2v2 does not exist in the game, despite having a 2v2 mapping contest..
  2. pause match/timeout

                   missing features

  1.  Team info widgets in default hud is really important to tdm
  2. weapon drop

 

CTF

                  flaws/bugs

  1. Teamsize/lock team
  2. Arena mutator removes flags from map

                   missing features

  1.  team info by default again would be really important here
  2. callvote timeout
  3. flagdrop/weapondrop/quaddrop
  4. scoring for non-cap events

Race

                   flaws/bugs

  1. Weapon movement is terrible with ping
  2. spectating deletes score
  3. no option to hide other players

                   missing features

  1.  checkpoints
  2.  leaderboards
  3. persistant records
  4. ghosts to race against, of fastest player or personal best

Duel

                   flaws/bugs

  1. spectators count towards votes
  2. Occasionally the order of the people in queue is mixed up. (Xytaglyph's post for details)
  3. missing items at start is still a thing
  4. changing name moves up in queue

                   missing features

  1.    Forfeit option while preserving stats

All things considered, duel is the most complete mode I think. Would love to hear some issues others have with it.

FlabCaptain, Owl, Monti and 4 others like this

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Posted (edited)

Pause match (time in/out) is a huge one, imo.

Also weapon drop for TDM.

Edited by lolograde
Owl likes this

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CTF
- Team size locks also relevant here

Race
- If you race and get a time, then go to spec, then back to play your time is erased. The time should probably persist until the round is ends.

Duel
- Occasionally  the order of the people in queue is mixed up. It seems that if someone in queue calls a vote and it fails then they are moved to the front of the queue (not sure on how to reproduce but It seems to have something to do with callvotes)

- Should have some means of actually forfeiting and ending the match immediately while displaying and keeping the stats for each player involved in the duel for early ggs.

- Difficult to reproduce bug in which the Mega health is not existent for a few seconds when the duel starts, possibly due to it being picked up during the 10s countdown prior to match start

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CTF (and I'll bulk in tdm/2v2 where it applies):

Flagdrop! Weapondrop!
 

I personally would also like Quaddrop, but have no idea what the overall opinions on that are.
 

Teamsize lock!

 

Nameplates.lua and better team ui. 

Some better scoring system for CTF is really needed. I don't care about epeen points, but only counting caps is wonky. Sure, kills and damage can be totally unrelevant info and be useless kills / damage, but apart from returns and kills on FC etc I don't know what else you would need to have in the scoring system.

oh, and yeah, Pause function!!!

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2 hours ago, Owl said:

I personally would also like Quaddrop, but have no idea what the overall opinions on that are.

In CTF, giving quad to a teammate should require /suicide as a penalty for not coordinating better, imo. The rules of team modes should reward the team that coordinates better and penalize the team that doesn't coordinate very well. 

In TDM/2v2, definitely no quad drop (and quad should end when carrier dies). Otherwise, it'd kill a large part of the mode's meta.

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3 hours ago, Eldrek said:

4. ghosts to race against, of fastest player or personal best

Ghosts would be very nice but maybe only of personal best. The ghost of the fastest player (whether on server currently or of all-time) would be detrimental as it would reveal routes. 

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Great post! Concise and constructive feedback, love it!

A few of those decisions were as per design. For example in CTF we wanted emphasis on flag captures rather than collecting kills / other events. I do agree it would be good to see more though, open to suggestions here, do keep in mind it needs to be a simplistic/elegant solution i.e. not something that requires a massive custom scoreboard with heaps of additional information. Also auto-join in FFA was to make the flow easier to the casual player, they don't auto-join the game until they've finished downloading the map.

A 2v2 mode is done and in the upcoming 48, the team UI is something I've wanted for ages which we didn't manage to get to yet, I agree it's needed.

Auto AFK is something nice we should add for sure, to be honest a lot of things like this I was looking to address after 48, perfect timing to have this list put together for you guys :) There's a big cleanup / bugfix / polish phase coming :) 

Also to be totally open some of this stuff is quite tricky, namely the knock-back issue under high-ping conditions & callvote timeout. I did have a big talk about timeout the other day though perhaps there is a solution here. Most of the other issues listed are quick fixes which should definitely happen!

Cheers!

 

Grybzt, MAD_JIHAD, Jaguar and 7 others like this

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34 minutes ago, shooter said:

Great post! Concise and constructive feedback, love it!

A few of those decisions were as per design. For example in CTF we wanted emphasis on flag captures rather than collecting kills / other events. I do agree it would be good to see more though, open to suggestions here, do keep in mind it needs to be a simplistic/elegant solution i.e. not something that requires a massive custom scoreboard with heaps of additional information. Also auto-join in FFA was to make the flow easier to the casual player, they don't auto-join the game until they've finished downloading the map.

A 2v2 mode is done and in the upcoming 48, the team UI is something I've wanted for ages which we didn't manage to get to yet, I agree it's needed.

Auto AFK is something nice we should add for sure, to be honest a lot of things like this I was looking to address after 48, perfect timing to have this list put together for you guys :) There's a big cleanup / bugfix / polish phase coming :) 

Also to be totally open some of this stuff is quite tricky, namely the knock-back issue under high-ping conditions & callvote timeout. I did have a big talk about timeout the other day though perhaps there is a solution here. Most of the other issues listed are quick fixes which should definitely happen!

Cheers!

 

 

I would like to see some ctf scoring for assists and things too, the person touching the flag stand with flag in hand is often not the person who made the play happen. Regardless, I don't think scoring is terribly important at the end of the day. Auto joining is really kind of atrocious and always results in a period of afk players, or players that join and disconnect without even moving, etc. There should be some input required to join a match in progress.

Knockback netcode has been long overdue, between that and the collision stuff they're easily the biggest problems in reflex gameplay currently. In race it doesn't really even need to be networked, you could just do it all client-side. Granted it might be more opened to cheating that way, but I'd rather have the possibility of cheating than being unable to use weapons in race at all.

Anyway thanks for checking in shooter, it has felt like radio silence the past few months and I know a lot of people have been losing faith in the game.

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16 minutes ago, shooter said:

A few of those decisions were as per design. For example in CTF we wanted emphasis on flag captures rather than collecting kills / other events. I do agree it would be good to see more though, open to suggestions here, do keep in mind it needs to be a simplistic/elegant solution i.e. not something that requires a massive custom scoreboard with heaps of additional information.

I agree with @Owl regarding returns and killing EFC. Imo, the big four (in order of importance/points) would be:

  1. Flag capture
  2. Flag return
  3. Killing enemy flag carrier
  4. Flag defense (killing enemy near flag before they touch friendly flag)

I don't know how the current point system works, but maybe 100pts for capture, 25 for return, 15 for killing EFC, and 15 for defense? 

Also controlling/stealing the enemy team's armors/mega are a huge deal. Not sure if that can somehow be easily determined for points. 

@Eldrek, another thing to add to the team mode features are chat tokens. Like, including with your weapon drop bind something like, "sayteam Dropping #current_weapon for #nearest_friend." or if you put your crosshairs over an item, being able to use a token for this like, "sayteam #crosshairs_item is available!!! Please take, #nearest_friend."

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Checkpoints as in splits or load/save position and speed? Both are needed, especially the latter helps a lot with routing longer maps.

Also small ramp jumps like on b0_reflex at the end of stage 4 or the third jump on stage 6 don't work, most likely related to skimming.

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Arena has problems as well. last i checked, Arena CTF removes flags, and Arena FFA is still a hide and seek simulator. Would much prefer if it used a damage system like ATDM rather than last man standing

NicholasWalters likes this

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On 1/8/2017 at 11:46 AM, doombro said:

Arena has problems as well. last i checked, Arena CTF removes flags, and Arena FFA is still a hide and seek simulator. Would much prefer if it used a damage system like ATDM rather than last man standing

Arena CTF removing flags is easy enough to add. I don't know how to approach design issues with AFFA in this thread considering it's a 'new' mode in reflex and working as intended. If you can distill it down to a simple bullet point rather than redesigning the mode entirely I'm all ears. Otherwise it might need a thread of it's own I think

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Don't add weapon drop to TDM.  It really cheapens TDM and makes it too easy.  I feel the same way about power up dropping in any mode (even CTF).  Just makes things too easy.  Let players work some to build up or actually have teamplay please.  It is much harder to have the right player in the right place at the right time with the right weapons/armor than for people to drop things for others at their convenience.

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1 hour ago, Fastidious said:

Don't add weapon drop to TDM.  It really cheapens TDM and makes it too easy.  I feel the same way about power up dropping in any mode (even CTF).  Just makes things too easy.  Let players work some to build up or actually have teamplay please.  It is much harder to have the right player in the right place at the right time with the right weapons/armor than for people to drop things for others at their convenience.

Depends on weapon respawn time but weapon drop works great in CPM TDM. If weapon respawn was 30s, that still requires a great deal of team coordination since quad/bs doesn't drop.

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  • I think for CTF would be nice to control game flow with "wave spawns".

So team could spawn in fixed time intervals, for example 10 seconds. 

That would be make more streamlined attack/defend game flow.

 

Also, I agree with changing scoring system + teamsize locking.

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15 hours ago, Grybzt said:
  • I think for CTF would be nice to control game flow with "wave spawns".

So team could spawn in fixed time intervals, for example 10 seconds. 

That would be make more streamlined attack/defend game flow.

 

Also, I agree with changing scoring system + teamsize locking.

 

Ye dumb idea. Maybe good for some another mode with some other features. But not for CTF and maps which are currently in game. CTF is CTF not some sort of round game rofl..

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1 minute ago, capodecima said:

 

Ye dumb idea. Maybe good for some another mode with some other features. But not for CTF and maps which are currently in game. CTF is CTF not some sort of round game rofl..

it wouldn't make it round based in any way. It just would make it different dynamically. And in my opinion less chaotic.

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Ye imagine i die with flag 3 steps from pedestal in my base and my team mates are on their "wave". LOL dynamic as fuck. :D

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