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chortas

Mouse input and projectiles feels bad

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Ok so, first of all, I like this game (I've played 1700+h). But some time ago I started to feel that mouse input in reflex is just feeling much worse than in any other game. I know that newborn told that input in reflex is raw BUT it does not feel raw in compare even with CoD MW2 with 90 fps lock. It's hard to explain properly, this is not an obvious input lag but its something like mouse filter (like something smooths mouse's moves). Also, it's not about vsync or bad fps because I have vsync off and 300+ fps on most maps. (gtx970 + i53570k 4.4ghz, 12 ram / monitor AOC g2770pqu 144 hz)), cl_input_subframe does not matter too.

And the second thing is projectiles in reflex - they are just inconsistent(feels like they are slow and shoots with small delay even you play on LAN) and shoots pretty random in fights (most directs from my side are just luck) of cause, not all players feel bad about rockets (for example some tf2 guys like it). Probably this is the projectile spawn place problem or maybe because it's not client sided, I don't know, but I don't like it at all.

And the third thing but it's not very important for me now is netcode, I know that its plays OK with the ping under 80 but if you play even slightly above 80 you have to take prediction on hitscan weapons. As for me I prefer to die around the corner (I am talking about any other game with lagcompensation, ql for example)  with high ping but hit bolts and IC when I have my crosshair on the enemy model instead of playing "battlefield".

The same feelings have all cpma ru community (that's why reflex become less popular in russia) and a lot of my mates from Japan. 

So overall I want to know - do devs have any plans to improve mouse input and projectiles?

ps; I know here is a lot of words "feel".

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Long story short: If you're more used to CPMA netcode/input, you'll probably prefer that.

I don't experience any issues with input. I also think the issue with projectiles is what you feel more comfortable with but ultimately you adapt to it. If you have 1700+ hours in Reflex, I've gotta ask. Which do you play more regularly? CPM or Reflex?

Initially, I did not like the way Reflex felt for both but now I feel they are much superior. The problem with CPMA netcode is that it's not predictable. You can hit people behind walls but you can also shoot through players A LOT in CPMA (even with long ping). It's just not predictable/stable to a high degree. And some people prefer that ambiguity (sort of like how people like the random spray in CS) but I rather understand why my shot hit or did not hit. 

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1 hour ago, lolograde said:

Long story short: If you're more used to CPMA netcode/input, you'll probably prefer that.

I don't experience any issues with input. I also think the issue with projectiles is what you feel more comfortable with but ultimately you adapt to it. If you have 1700+ hours in Reflex, I've gotta ask. Which do you play more regularly? CPM or Reflex?

Initially, I did not like the way Reflex felt for both but now I feel they are much superior. The problem with CPMA netcode is that it's not predictable. You can hit people behind walls but you can also shoot through players A LOT in CPMA (even with long ping). It's just not predictable/stable to a high degree. And some people prefer that ambiguity (sort of like how people like the random spray in CS) but I rather understand why my shot hit or did not hit. 

 

 

So if those "bad feeling" input and rockets are part of netcode I don't want such payment. Btw I am not talking just about cpma (I am not cpma player but when I play it once a month I can hit much more both - hitscan and projectile, than in reflex), reflex mouse input is just not such as in any other games. And I am not talking about making reflex "like cpma" or something like that, but make input and projectile feel "right". I don't bother about splash/damage/cooldown and so on. And one more thing - my input get better if I set lower resolution even with the same fps lock which is very strange.

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1 minute ago, chortas said:

I am not cpma player but when I play it once a month I can hit much more both - hitscan and projectile, than in reflex

That doesn't mean CPMA netcode is superior. It is just more "forgiving". I also hit a lot better in CPM than in Reflex but it registers things as hits that it really shouldn't. Like you said, shooting someone through a wall, hitting a rail that is clearly not where you shot (like the angle of the rail beam is slightly off from where your railgun is actually aiming), or hitting a shot that was not aimed directly at the enemy. CPMA netcode "fudges" a lot of hit registry. Reflex feels a lot more "solid" to me -- it's a lot more predictable and less random than CPMA netcode. This is IMO.

Regarding input, you may have some sort of settings issues because I do not experience these things that you do. Input feels very nice to me and I do not see any delay when I shoot rockets or move mouse. I play at 200-300fps (depending on the map) and use cl_input_subframe 1. From what I understand, you should be using cl_input_subframe 1 if you get less than a stable 500fps. 

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I'm totally with you on hitscan feeling like crap on high ping!. Never played cpma though so can't comment on the rest.

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3 hours ago, chortas said:

And one more thing - my input get better if I set lower resolution even with the same fps lock which is very strange.

I think I have actually noticed this, too. Just going from 1080p to 900p or 720p, there does seem to be some added smoothness to things when my FPS is the same. No idea if it's a real thing or placebo...

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I've never had any issues with this I have to say. Hitscan will always feel crap on high ping, the important thing is that the netcode brilliantly compensates up to 80ms - remarkably so, frankly. Anything else is beyond the reach of any game, surely. Even at about 100-110ms on NA servers I haven't really had problems.

If this is an issue then you're going to have to describe it better than 'bad feeling', I think.

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(gtx970 + i53570k 4.4ghz, 12 ram) lol? This is really not best machine to run STABLE 300 fps on reflex even in duels on all maps. I have slightly beter machine. I have capped on 300 FPS too and csgo on 300 too. My theory is Reflex handle bad this fps drops. Like when you drop from 300 to 190 FPS or soomething you will be notice, when in csgo you prob havent notice at all. Well this is my experience.

edit: this is also the reason in past the mouse was great i think, but when there is more details. detailed maps etc it drop fps and shit and the mouse suffer with it. And also the ppl playing on capped 120 fps probably never see any difference...

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Since capping my fps to 144 I find the mouse input and game smoother overall, I think there is something to this theory that fps variations cause issues in this game. Other than that I have no issues.

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Rockets feel consistent to me if I read their movement patterns. It also feels pretty easy to adjust rockets to 110~ ping as well. My hitscan is definitely worse on high pings but is getting better the more I play on EU servers. Dunno about your input latency issues.

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For some people input lag was fixed by capping framerate to monitors Hz. I know strange, but for some this helped :)

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You're not alone in thinking that the projectiles feel 'off.' It's actually a consequence of the netcode (It has nothing to do with where the projectile spawns or anything like that), which can't be 'fixed' unless we go back to the way q3 netcode works.

I feel the same way about projectiles as you do, and when we were testing expplus, I decided to increase the speed of the rockets by 100ups. Which, to quite a lot of people, made the rockets feel a lot better. But in the end it was shot down because some players think that "the speed must remain at 1000ups and can't change ever, because Quake has always been this way!" blah blah blah. These are the same players that disagreed with the change because it would require them to rebuild their muscle memory, then went on to change the speed of the Plasma Rifle, as well as the movement.. 

 

Edited by LoNeZiLLa
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On 08/02/2017 at 10:17 PM, chortas said:

So overall I want to know - do devs have any plans to improve mouse input and projectiles?

Yes, improvements are on our massive list.

chortas, noble, Greed and 2 others like this

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something that helps a lot with input in my experience is taking measures to reduce the variance of framerate. in other words you dont want to be playing at 250 maxfps while it's shooting down to 150 and up to 280 regularly. my frames usually sit in the lower 200s in play so I set my cap to 240 and if its a more demanding map performance-wise, I'll lower the cap as needed to keep the framerate from jumping around too much.

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43 minutes ago, doombro said:

something that helps a lot with input in my experience is taking measures to reduce the variance of framerate. in other words you dont want to be playing at 250 maxfps while it's shooting down to 150 and up to 280 regularly. my frames usually sit in the lower 200s in play so I set my cap to 240 and if its a more demanding map performance-wise, I'll lower the cap as needed to keep the framerate from jumping around too much.

Do you use cl_input_subframe 1? Or 0?

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3 hours ago, lolograde said:

Do you use cl_input_subframe 1? Or 0?

1. doesn't seem to make a difference for me though.

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I haven't read this whole thread but I have noticed that for lower end computers mouse input in reflex is very dependant on cpu usage, try disabling occlusion to see if you notice an improvement in mouse input feel. In most cases higher fps wont make the mouse feel better once its above your refresh rate, its less cpu utilization that will. Another thing to note is that disabling the advanced windows aero stuff will put more load on the cpu as the newer UI stuff is done on the gpu in windows.

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2 hours ago, MAD_JIHAD said:

Another thing to note is that disabling the advanced windows aero stuff will put more load on the cpu as the newer UI stuff is done on the gpu in windows.

Huh, interesting. I have Win7 and aero disabled because I figured it'd help. 

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11 minutes ago, CxeofPromode said:

Lolograde it's not that I don't believe you but where did you get the information that cl_input_subframe is a good command?  I get very volatile 220-300 FPS and some maps I can barely sustain 180-200 with FPS uncapped.  I've decided to play with 167 FPS for stability at 144 Hz.  Do you have any documentation on cl_input_subframe and why it would be good for low end machines

Per the wiki.reflexfiles.com entry on console commands:

cl_input_subframe <0/1>         // 0: input is processed per frame, 1: at 1kHz

It was either Newborn or @shooter who said something like, "If you get less than 500fps stable, you will probably want to use cl_input_subframe 1". Please correct me if I am mistaken, though.  My mouse, G100s, only works at 500hz so I'm not sure if I'm shooting myself in the foot or what. But cl_input_subframes 1 feels better to me. Might be placebo, but I've never had the issues other people are mentioning re: input delay. 

EDIT: I think cl_input_subframe was taken out at one point and then re-added in 0.38. According to the 0.38 update notes, Newborn said there were issues with cl_input_subframe. Not sure what those are. Again, this is just my experience. I don't have any input delays and cl_input_subframes 1 feels fine to me.

Edited by lolograde

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If input is processed per frame with cl_input_subframe 0 and you have it capped at 167fps??? :unsure:

EDIT: In the Reflex Discord channel, you can use the command !flexy <cvar> and it will give you some info. Seems like !flexy has more info/documentation about cvars than the wiki is. 

Edited by lolograde

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On 2/13/2017 at 9:34 PM, LoNeZiLLa said:

You're not alone in thinking that the projectiles feel 'off.' It's actually a consequence of the netcode (It has nothing to do with where the projectile spawns or anything like that), which can't be 'fixed' unless we go back to the way q3 netcode works.

I feel the same way about projectiles as you do, and when we were testing expplus, I decided to increase the speed of the rockets by 100ups. Which, to quite a lot of people, made the rockets feel a lot better. But in the end it was shot down because some players think that "the speed must remain at 1000ups and can't change ever, because Quake has always been this way!" blah blah blah. These are the same players that disagreed with the change because it would require them to rebuild their muscle memory, then went on to change the speed of the Plasma Rifle, as well as the movement.. 

 

because the pg is used just as much as the RL :^)

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18 hours ago, CxeofPromode said:

Also jihad mentioned disabling occlusion would increase performance but I find that so strange, doesn't occlusion force the game to not render objects that are occluded to a players line of sight?  Won't it be a bigger performance crunch to have it disabled and have to render all objects even those hidden

The game uses the cpu to render a low resolution image which is used for culling meshes and stuff. Think of it as using cpu power to use less gpu power, some low end setups can't benefit from the trade off as the cpu just isn't powerful enough.

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