KovaaK

We need to talk about the state of the game.

138 posts in this topic

Reflex was just released last month and enjoyed a small population boom that took the concurrent users and multiplied it by 2-3. It was great until something like 90% of the newer players stopped playing. So we must ask ourselves why the population tanked back to pre-release levels already.

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Was it the community? No, I highly doubt that. The majority of us have been very welcoming and took time to show newer players what the game has to offer. Parkourstation and reflextrain saw a lot of play time on public servers. Even in duels, veterans stopped and explained why they were surviving through multiple direct rockets to the face, toned down their game, and let newcomers grab some armors. Bringing people to the official discord has gone pretty well too. I'd love it if this was a success story and I was only here to report these facts... 

So why didn't people stick with the game? To use a metaphor, I think it's that new players see a pit of depth for how good you could possibly be at reflex, but there are no lights pointed down there. There is nothing that illuminates why prime overlords can convincingly beat overlords, who can stomp on diamonds, who can dominate platinums, who can destroy... All the way down to bronze. As we all know, combat skills don't define everything in this game, but that is the only thing that is outwardly obvious before a new player buys the game. And even after they have played for a week, they are aware movement plays a big part, but the depths of strategy are still a murky black pit that makes no sense to them.

Compared to Overwatch, it's really obvious that depth in the game (outside of combat skills) comes from finding the right times to use your abilities and coordinating with teammates. You don't go into the game without knowing what you eventually need to improve upon. In Reflex, so many people bought the game and quit before they even knew how to improve.

There is an old video that described the ways in which Mega Man and Mega Man X were amazing games. The tl;dw: is that the games avoided explicitly telling people what to do because the mechanics of the game were revealed naturally while forcing the player to recognize what was going on, and mechanics that didn't work well in earlier games were removed in later games. This video brings home a really good point to me: my Reflex tutorials shouldn't need to exist. At least 90% of what I say in my tutorials should be forced on the player or made much more transparent.  New players shouldn't be forced to listen to me talk - the game should make the important aspects completely obvious through the player exploring the game.

This is why I thought item timers were a step in the right direction - it enhances mechanic transparency. As we observed, the more hardcore players fought against it because it diminished known strategic depth. It wasn't the ideal solution, and I'm willing to admit that. But it's still painfully clear that something needs to change with the fundamental gameplay of Reflex, and it won't be easy. I have two proposed changes we could try out, and I'm curious if anyone can poke holes in them. I'm also interested in other ideas people might have. 

Proposed change 1: bring back item timers in competitive modes, but make them unreliable. A mechanic could be introduced where if you shoot at an item that is not yet respawned, it adds or subtracts time from the respawning item (perhaps to a max of 5 seconds). Item timer widgets could represent what the unmodified time would be, and players could throw off timing by hand. Maybe you could tweak this idea and make it so the last person/team to collect the armor adds time to respawn by shooting it, and others subtract time by shooting it (or vice versa). 

To accommodate new players, you'd want to clearly show that respawn time is being changed by their actions with "-1 second" popping out of the item colored according to the action, and a default UI widget like apheleon's timer timeline with visual uncertainty (instead of discrete red armor on the time line, a red armor on a bar that extends to the possible ranges) would go a long way to help.

Or... 

Proposed change 2: all armors respawn at :00 and :30 on the clock. Other items keep their existing respawn properties. An additional benefit to this drastic change is that it removes the full lock armor cycle state of control, which means small skill differences will be less likely to result in huge score differences.

With armor cycling removed, positioning yourself between multiple armors and timing your attacks appropriately become a stronger part of the game's higher end strategy. A simple but prominent UI widget showing time until all armors respawn would go a long way to teach new players what they need to focus on.

I know #2 is harder to get buy-in from older players, but I want you guys to think seriously on it. We need to community to grow. I think #1 might not take it far enough. Perhaps #1 along with other changes to help make the game's important mechanics more transparent world be ideal, but I'd really like to try out things that make the game more approachable.

I also have a list of changes I'd recommend to the game's tutorial system, but that is less important than gameplay changes at this point.

klyph0rd, Grybzt, Eldrek and 13 others like this

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My advice was tiered training with unlocks. 

Learn to bunnyhop unlocks, learn to strafe, unlocks string them together, unlocks doublejump, ad infinitum. 

This is done in most single player games to "teach as you go" as I think Kovaak had eluded to.

This could be done with any aspect of the game,, positioning, timing, aim, movement, memes. 

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This does indeed need to be talked about. The statistics clearly show that we had new players come in on release and the majority of them seem to have now dropped the game, which is most unfortunate. Apart from the vicious cycle that is the relatively low playerbase, I can't help but feel that this largely stems from the hidden mechanics of the game that are not exposed to the newcomer. To me, the problem is conveying that information concisely and preferably in a fun way to new players. I'm not sure I care for the idea of changing the mechanics at all.

I'd like to consider myself one of the many players in the community who made an effort to answer questions from new players, checked the #newbies channel, spent time with players in servers etc etc; something I've always done. And what I remember from that is thinking just how much information I had to convey and type, and just how repetitive it got. Frankly I feel like a well produced 3-5 minute video for new players to watch would be enough to convey a /lot/ of information. Ideally it should be done in game but that is just not feasible, I think. There's so much to learn.. Perhaps it could be done via training mode but it would need a lot more dev time.

Regarding item timers, I agree that they are a good way for new players to learn the game and understand item timings. Doesn't the casual ruleset solve this? I guess the problem there is that competitive modes (for matchmaking) have many more players. But I have seen new players play casual duels on stream.

Certainly the currently community training section could be more prominent in the main menu. Ramagan's video guide to duel is very well done I think, he's put the effort into editing it well and so on, and is relatively concise. That playlist should be in there somewhere.

T'is a thorny issue indeed, I look forward to the discussion! I have to say, after considerable thought and with all due respect, I really don't like either of KovaaK's proposed changes. #1 seems too convoluted to me and not fun at all, #2 is actually more tolerable but i don't think it solves anything. You could still cycle armours, and the mechanic isn't obvious.

It is kinda like chess I suppose. There's no real substitute but to put the time in and learn the mechanics before you can really enjoy the game. I'm going to stop now before I ramble on. I hope I don't sound negative. My gut feeling is just that game mechanics need to be introduced and explained to new players in a much better way. Right now a player has no choice but to seek help from the community and watch videos. An official video would be a good thing I think.

meowgli, Gangland, Kyto and 1 other like this

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So, some background on me before I go into a rant about the game.  Reflex was my first fps after a long run an rts stint reaching GM in SC2:WoL and a moderate level in wc3 Dota and dota2.

Now, understanding my competitive background I must say that Reflex is the most brutal ego crusher ever created. Even in sc2 where ladder anxiety is a hot topic, you could blame cheese or the game balance for your loss.


Reflex's strong suit is also its demise: it is extremely frank when expressing skill disparities. It is so thoughroughly skill based that coming in you either get your ego smashed to shit in the process of learning and leave,  or push through it and are invested.

The game forces a decision between scaling the learning cliff under hot oil being poured on your ego, or leaving.
Noone wants to be shown how ineffective they are, but truly skill based games do a wonderful job of forcing this realization.  In some players this fuels a drive to be the best -  but to others it is a turn off. No matter how well your matchmaking works or how well your tutorials teach skills, the basic design is heartless.

As much as I'd hate to see it happen,  the only hope I see for the game is a normalization of skills involved.  I'm hesitant to use that word because few know what I mean by it. 'Normalization by peaks' in music takes a track with large dynamic variance (amplitude,  in this analogy skill) analyzes the highest amplitude and reduces the dynamic range by bringing up the volume of lower amplitudes,  compressing the difference between the loudest and quietest amplitudes. But still maintaining the highest amplitude. (limited reduction in skill cap) In reflex this would require the old blood to give up elements that raise the barrier of entry.

The difficult thing is normalizing 'just enough' so that the better player will still win a majority of their matches. But so that any player can enjoy their games at any skill level.

The jist of what I'm saying is that we have to lower the skill floor so that anyone can duel anyone and have fun-without squashing the dynamic range between high and low skill too much.

Let's look at the world's most popular sport football,  the barrier of entry is nearly nonexistent.  Think about the difference between a pro footballer and a seasoned veteran and a first timer -  they are at distinctly different experience levels, but the first timer can see and appreciate how the two are better than him. In playing with them he can see the possibility of reaching there with hard work,  after all they are only human, there's a limit to how superior you can be,  even when the skill cap is limitless.  A footballer can always get an edge over another player, but the total gap between him and the first timer stays pretty much constant. The issue with reflex is that the skill gap from a new player to a week old player has the dynamic skill range of the entire existing pro football scene,  and that gap compounds upward seemingly infinitely (from a new players perspective) and continues to grow as long as veterans keep playing.

For simply competing this is great because you get to see a defined 'best player' by visible margins,  but when trying to bring players into an entrenched skill climb to infinity the dynamic skill gap is simply too large to sustain a population that isn't there to git gud.

 

TLDR: raise skill floor so that the distance between the best players in the world and the worst is a fathomable margin. Focus game less on mechanics to taper skill creep. Destroy the learning cliff and generally enforce diminishing mechanical returns at a certain point.Percentile differences in apparent skill rather than orders of magnitude.

 

FYI I don't think it's possible in the current ecosystem. But I think it is definitely possible to lower the barrier of entry, improve newbie effectiveness and keep a sufficiently high skill ceiling.

Joe, Crypto, w96k and 5 others like this

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I think no matter how transparent the game is it won't take off because it's lacking the social aspect. The only somewhat popular 1v1 games i can think of are fighting games and those can easily be played with two people on one console. Having a friend to play with is what keeps people from quitting when the game gets frustrating. How to fix that i don't know, CTF and TDM could be pushed more but neither of those modes seems particularly good for competition, or at least not as good as duel.

meowgli, w96k, Fastidious and 2 others like this

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im fine with any spicy changes being done in mm as long as they stay there, but i want whitelisted widgets in MM. 

as long as i can still play the normal game in a pvt server. 

meowgli likes this

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9 minutes ago, pomakik said:

im fine with any spicy changes being done in mm as long as they stay there, but i want whitelisted widgets in MM. 

as long as i can still play the normal game in a pvt server. 

Inb4 call vote ruleset classic in every server.

Sharqosity likes this

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Changing mechanics to ones which are easier to understand is a bad idea.

I've said this before but the UI needs to convey the tiered armour mechanics better to new players.

Username, Jaguar and Kyto like this

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There are a two distinct forces at work that influence player retention in regards to competitive games.

First, reduce frustration.

Second, feedback.

 

There are two pieces that make up Reflex (and one that connects them).

-         -- The physical manipulation of the character in the game (moving and aiming) and how you decide to aim and move in the moment (dodging, preferring) . – I call this Kinesthetics

-         -- Using/abusing the map, weapon control, armor control – I call this Meta

-          --The ability to create a plan and execute on Meta, using Kinesthetics – I call this Flow

 

 

Notice the player has full control over kinesthetics. This means they have 100% feedback on what they do. This results in low frustration. So long as the player knows of the existence of bunnyhopping, if they see someone bunnyhopping better than them, they understand that they can/would also bunnyhop that well and are not likely to be frustrated, since they have feedback.

Notice the player has no control over the Metagame. They cannot see the timers, the enemy stack, the good rail angels, the perfect moves to make in the early game based on spawns. This is low feedback, which increases frustration.

 

To talk about retention is to talk about the new player experience. For a new player, the goal is to play the game. By playing the game, you learn the game at the same time. To start to play Reflex, you MUST have Kinesthetics, but you do not need Meta. It is assumed you have a mouse and keyboard and know how to shoot a gun, but it is not assumed you already know how to play Reflex before you play Reflex.

So then, to play Reflex (and by consequence, learn reflex), players need to be able to focus on doing the thing they already know how to do (Kinesthetics) while not focusing on Meta. Players use Kinesthetics as a lens to explore the game.

 If the player where to attempt to immediately focus on Meta, they would not be playing the game. Instead, they would be hitting alt+f4 and pulling up a wiki, reading, and still not fully understand anything since they still haven’t played the game.  

If we want to talk about how a new player should learn, we need to understand where they are going. What is the difference between the worst and the best players, and why is there such a dynamic range of skill as described by Meowgli and Kovaak.

Between kinesthetic and Meta, which has the largest impact? I’m afraid you will have to take my word for it, but Meta is responsible for the stratification of the player base, not Kinesthetics. (As far as the impact of Meta, Kinesthetics and Flow at different skill brackets, I could go into more detail about their relative importance at various levels, but I would like to continue on to solutions for new player learning.) I feel that Meta is least important for Top Level Players v. Top Level Players, second to Flow, then kinesthetic at the top (I could write more on this).

For Low Level Player v. Low Level Player, the list is inverted. (When I say it’s important, I mean that time spent focusing on improving that aspect of their play results in the highest amount of skill bracket return)  

 

Moving all the way back to frustration, eventually the matchmaking system will create a match where one player will come out as the winner and the other will lose. During that game, it’s important to minimize frustration. As discussed, the main source of frustration is Meta.

 

I’m going to start wrapping ups since I’m super tired.

 

Timers as a learning tool give so much to new players and take little to nothing away from high level players when against lower level players. My solution would be to give timers to the lower mmr players, or players likely to lose the match. (Im not sure how Reflexes mmr system works exatly, but as a mid plat, give timers to anyone in gold.) But, as you get higher in rank, the handicap window shrinks, so that at a certain point, two diamonds would never see timers against each other.

 

This increases the skill floor.

 

Also, remove Casual Duels.

-         -- People only go to casual when competitive doesn’t give them what they want

-          --It’s a competitive game, so if competitive doesn’t give them what they want, then something is fucked up

-        --  (more reasons related to feedback point)

w96k, Karma, tangy and 1 other like this

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If you want to make your game more enjoyable for newer players (some even completely brand new to arena shooters) you'll want to #1 add game modes like King of the Hill and Control Points to give a more obvious objective to the game, #2 create various casual and competitive rule sets for each of these game modes changing the properties for weapons, weapon loadouts and even making a speed cap, and #3 make your map makers design maps specifically for these game modes.

Note: I believe Dueling shouldn't change. Don't make any quick assumptions.

yiHa and Furioness like this

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Also keep uncapped speed for game modes like Dueling / Clan Arena / CTF. Because those are good COMPETITIVE game modes.

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To hell with it, add competitive game modes for these "casual" game modes too so that way the more casual players can feel good about themselves too.

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I've only recently started dueling after 200 hours of mostly playing ffa, so my suggestions might not be suitable for competitive play.

The default hud should convey the importance of major items more clearly. I thought of some things the hud could show:

  • Symbols of all the major items on the map signifying whether an item is up or not. For example when playing on t7 you would see symbols for RA, YA and YA: the symbol would be pulsating when the item is up and crossed over when not up. Also symbol for MH would show whether it's up, not up or held.
  • A message pops up when a major item gets picked up, maybe only for RA and MH. This could help the new players to realise that picking up items is important.
  • Something that says you can't pick up YA or GA because of having too much higher tier armor. Maybe show the absorption percentage of the armor you have.

Possibly a more acceptable way of having timers would be to have them on the items themselves, similar to item timers in Quake Live. The timers would tick every 5 seconds or so.

Or instead of timers there could be some sort of effect on the item spawn point 10 seconds before it spawns.

Some of these changes might not be good and personally I could do without them, but I can imagine them helping the new players.

lumpp and Kawumm like this

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I've always thought the tiered armor system is in a way weird (Just think about the number you have to get down to pick up YAs or GAs, it's odd)
I think there are some visual changes you could make the whole system more intuitive without changing anything in-game.
For example, when you walk over an ammo box and you have full ammo for that specific type, have something that pops up flashing near the weapon bar saying "MAX AMMO"
You could possibly do the same with the armor bar, flashing the amount you need to be at to be able to pick up the armor you're standing on.

Another change I've thought about for a while is properly implemented 3d item timers (yes even in competitive) that only show up when you're fairly close to an item and they don't show seconds but more inaccurate chunks. (think pie timers)

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You guys too focusing on armours or some another specified aspects but missing main. Main - is human focus possibilities is heavy limited.
New player need to keep focusing for thinking about witch weapon he have right now, where he is, how healthy he is, where to find another weapon, how to move, ect. and additionally he need to think what think about all that his opponent and how to play against that.
Main difference between new and top player is how many stuff he can focus on same time. Actually, number is near same (7 +/- 2), but in 1 of that runtime memory cell top player has much more information than new. And to get that stuff compressed need training, and if start count of stuff would be not high and increasing by 1 part of game stuff and after previous gets compressed - learning process will be much faster.
So, question not in changing armour system (or any another aspect), question on total removing that for new player.
Put them to play special simplified maps with only 3-4 main weapons, then add 1 major item with timer, then some bit harder maps with new movement aspects ect.
Question where to get players for this training ladder - "simply" BOTS.
Also all that must be obviously as some good UI system.
Like new player launching reflex for first time, he has blocked competitive mods until he finish that interactive tutorial, he has 1 big button, like New game that instantly put him on server where he getting info about basic keyboard/mouse/hud configuration, then info about few basics aspects like simple w/a/d/s/jump/crouch movement, and 3-4 main weapons and instantly getting fight with bot, after explanation about some few another aspects like armours, half-advanced movement knowledge...
Would be great to have it as some "single player" story, with voice actors, some story, video-frames with examples. And for finishing major parts player gets some cosmetics.
I think for professional developers nothing hard to found good solution oneself, question do reflex devs have resources and priorities and motivation.

Sum up: protection from veterans, step-by-step 1 game aspect tutorial and right after match with bot, fancy UI and some intrigue in process time.

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Also, is 10% retention of new players bad? I suspect that's pretty good, especially with how competitive the multiplayer-fps market is at the moment.

 

I'm not saying there's nothing more that can or should be done to help new players. But I doubt that the Triple-A fps games hold on to their players any better, they just have much more money for sustained marketing than reflex does and natural exposure from their larger playerbase, both of which help keep new players coming in. (even if only 10% stay long term.)

Kyto, Furioness, Pill_ and 1 other like this

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7 hours ago, KvanttE said:

I've only recently started dueling after 200 hours of mostly playing ffa, so my suggestions might not be suitable for competitive play.

The default hud should convey the importance of major items more clearly. I thought of some things the hud could show:

  • Symbols of all the major items on the map signifying whether an item is up or not. For example when playing on t7 you would see symbols for RA, YA and YA: the symbol would be pulsating when the item is up and crossed over when not up. Also symbol for MH would show whether it's up, not up or held.
  • A message pops up when a major item gets picked up, maybe only for RA and MH. This could help the new players to realise that picking up items is important.
  • Something that says you can't pick up YA or GA because of having too much higher tier armor. Maybe show the absorption percentage of the armor you have.

Possibly a more acceptable way of having timers would be to have them on the items themselves, similar to item timers in Quake Live. The timers would tick every 5 seconds or so.

Or instead of timers there could be some sort of effect on the item spawn point 10 seconds before it spawns.

Some of these changes might not be good and personally I could do without them, but I can imagine them helping the new players.

This has been underappreciated so far, imo. One big problem for new players is that they do not understand why they are losing. They focus on the fights, and wonder why they hit 2 direct rockets and still die, they try to fight better, but fighting better actually doesn't help them either. Picking up a red armor is so important, it should start all kinds of fireworks on the HUD and on the headphones to make absolutely sure that the player does understand what happened and that he fucked up, when he let the opponent snatch all the juicy stuff (and not when he had a decent fight that he had no chance in winning, because he was completely out-armored).

Additionally, having  MH/RA positions visible through walls at all times could be an effective change, that doesn't change the gameplay for seasoned players at all, while helping newbies a lot.

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I don't think that making the game more accessible for new players would help very much if we overdo it too much. What happens is that people will pick up this game, get into it a bit, and then they realize that it really just isn't their thing. I know that when I started playing this game, even though I sucked dick and got destroyed by any decent player, I didn't just give up with the idea that this game is stupid. I wanted to get better, so I kept playing. This is something that a lot of people just don't have the time and/or motivation to do.

The truth is that we're playing an extremely niche genre of game. Almost all of the disappearing new players don't just stop playing because it's not holding their hand enough, it's just that ultimately, they don't like this type of game. No amount of hand-holding is going to change that.

In fact, it's possible that by adding so many hand holding features, the target audience that this game goes for will actually get pushed away. I know I nearly stopped playing back in early access when item timers were default on, simply because I didn't like how much it took one of the skill factors out of the game.

(though I do agree that some things should not be hard to figure out, like the magic number of RA you can have max to pick up a YA/GA)

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As a relatively new player to the genre (especially trying to be good), and as someone who hasn't played in a few weeks, frustration with my own skill/lack thereof is a major reason why I'm hesitant to start the game (the game crashing Steam then not actually launching doesn't help, admittedly). I like to think I can aim, but Reflex loves showing me I can't. However, I don't think core mechanics need to be changed.

I think the best way to help new players besides more new players to fight against (which isn't something the devs can do) is proper education. As someone else said, the tiered armor thing is huge, but the in-game tutorial doesn't do a great job of making sure the player knows that, and not every player wants to sit through Kovaak's excellent tutorial series that highlights literally everything you need to know to start playing the game.

I think the tutorial could be dramatically improved by having a pop-up appear in the training course when you pick up, say, a Green Armor, which tells the player "Hey, this absorbs 50% of incoming damage, and maxes out at 100 armor points", then hit them with a direct rocket to illustrate that. For weapons, it could show the damage and rate of fire, and for the Mega, it could show how quickly damage decays, and when the timer on the Mega restarts. It's very easy to ignore the buttons that show that information in the tutorial, which means players are left clueless. It could also help to force players to complete part of the tutorial (through items and weapons) before allowing them to play competitive matches.

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Perhaps the armor and hp stacks should morph a player into a more beastly perhaps larger looking bot in order to show a losing player what he is up against. The same progressing upgrades could somehow be shown clearly also to the one picking them up (maybe, you'd see yourself physically morphing or armors slaming into your body) . Then it would be more clear to a player that he/she is not losing because of aim, but because of the enemy progressing and morphing through armor upgrades. Ofcourse there is the arguement for keeping health/stacks unknown and separated in the high-level play; for this a compromise is either the progessive upgrade could only apply to when a player can withstand 2 rockets, or when he's only holding RA or something.. Or make the current way the ultimate competitive optional mode, but it should then be kept out of Match Making.

 

edit/p.s. if an armor did attach to a players body and make them visibly larger, it is also another opportunity for some kind of customizable addon. Ofcourse it might be best kept the same colour as the player model due to team modes, unless in 1v1 applying colours of armors worked specifically for duel. But there's no reason why there couldnt be some kind of different designs for them, they might stand out very well.

Kawumm, matt_au, wrjthe and 1 other like this

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This is an essential discussion for the future of this game yes!

IMO the best possibility for getting a bigger player base and keeping it is a new game mode.  

As Kovaak said new players are leaving the game.  A big reason for this (its already been mentioned multiple times in this thread) is they get discouraged.  I think a great remedy to this would be something no one has ever seen before.  I really think Reflex is in a position to blow up, but its going to take some creativity IMO.  A new game mode that does not revolve around pure afps skill (timing 3 armors + mega, crazy aim, crazy movement) could be very beneficial towards building a player base and keeping new players. Learning the art of afps duel is a serious endeavor that 90% of newcomers simply are not willing to take.  So... give us something fun, low stress, and non competitive! 

 Other than this I agree completely that game play (at least casual) should be tweaked to lessen the skill gap between new players and vets.    

1 hour ago, bej said:

Perhaps the armor and hp stacks should morph a player into a more beastly perhaps larger looking bot in order to show a losing player what he is up against. The same progressing upgrades could somehow be shown clearly also to the one picking them up (maybe, you'd see yourself physically morphing or armors slaming into your body) . 

This is a crazy and awesome idea, this is the creativity Reflex needs.  Hitbox increases the bigger you become? ;)

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Posted (edited)

Duel is the problem. 1v1 has always been for the hardcore crowd, not newcomers. We already have a great casual mode in the form of ATDM. Just need to inform new players about that.

E: even if the devs changed a ton of stuff to lower the barrier to entry, I think we still wouldn't get a whole lot of new players. This may be cynical of me, but I think gameplay is secondary to marketing budget when it comes to a game's popularity. Having a research department dedicated to keeping people hooked is pretty essential as well (see: any Blizzard game).

Edited by Pill_
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A number of responses (here and in DMs elsewhere) have suggested a new, casual game mode would be good for player retention.  This is a really good point that I'd neglected.  In fact, I played Quake 1 in a very casual setting for a few years before I even knew there was a competitive community.  I mentioned this a few years ago, but there was a really cool idea for a mod that my friends had me program in Quake 1.  I think it would work beautifully in Reflex as well...

Basically, it's an asymmetrical mode in which one team is defending a flag/capture point, and the attacking team is attempting to touch said point.  When the attacking team does manage to touch the point, everyone on the map is killed, and the sides are swapped.  Everyone starts out with all weapons and an appreciable amount of health/armor/ammo, but there are pickups on the map that respawn at an accelerated pace - mostly clustered on the defending team's side.  You could give points over time to the defending team depending on how long they were able to maintain control, and have a timelimit on the map before the round is over.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNWqp5Fd5Ug is a video of it in action in Quake 1.

The awesome movement systems of Quake and Reflex allow it to be something like an obstacle course that the attackers have to traverse while being shot at by defenders.  It's great fun, and the map making tools+workshop for Reflex could turn it into something pretty amazing.

Also, thanks everyone for the great discussion and ideas.  <3

 

Greed, matt_au, Jaguar and 6 others like this

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47 minutes ago, scar_tom said:

I believe we simply need this (even though I know it's already confirmed)

also an enticing free weekend

Woo, you referenced my thread! The devs just confirmed that drop-in/drop-out functionality will be in the next update (1.1), so that will go a long way towards making ffa, instagib, atdm/CA, more accessible for new players. Can't wait!

As for teaching new players about duel, how about a well done training map that puts you in game with a bot, and slowly feeds you information about items, cycling, basic tactics, etc. A fair bit of work, but 10x better than a video.

edit: I forgot to mention - that game mode Kovaak describes sounds great :D

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