KovaaK

We need to talk about the state of the game.

81 posts in this topic

Heh the problem is i swear to god on 99% only the complicated movement. I have not much quake background, i played a lot a lot unreal back in days, then doom cs 1.5. If you make the movement more easier somehow. You got the player base probably. Like i swear its not really fun practice some dumb jumps for hours. People want play and frag, kill :D. Movement is 99% in this game. Everyone can aim nowadays. Tell w/e you want about some strategies but the movement is everything here. And i told before, doing some dumb jumps for bolts for hours when you miss the pad by centimeters etc, is just dumb. You got later on somehow. But make the jump succesful on 99% all time is maybe 150 hours of reflex. 150 hours of just stress, nervous, and kill ratio 0.001, This is not fun -_-. We need just some good settings for people which want just play something new, with great netcode, different graphics. And then ofc have pure vanilla settings for "stuff". This is really not 2000 when ppl just grinded one game 14 hours a day to being best. People nowadays play a lot games. OW, csgo, h1z1, quake etc...

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A lot of these posts have addressed my own issues with the game. Unfortunately, to add on to this, Quake Champions being F2P might well be the nail in the coffin. I know that's pretty grim and me mentioning it might cause some backlash, but this game is coming around with betas, so Reflex needs to jump on this thread ASAP and make a lot of these posts priority. I want Reflex to win. Seriously. I don't like F2P communities, and I love Reflex's so much.

But whether QC is successful or not doesn't even matter. It's a huge; it's the foundation of this type of game, and it's going to be F2P. Now those that don't like the game might very well find Reflex, but then they need to be willing to shell out $10 and getting their ass kicked in duels, because damn if they can find any server populated outside of duels. They can figure that out within the 2 hour refund period in steam, and that's not OK. I actually did that the first time I played the game, and then I bought it again and played for 30+ more hours.

My personal problem is that in Reflex, duels is the (seemingly) sole focus. The duel games going on are right there on the front page ready to be watched. All the other game modes are hardly touched, and yet, those are my jams: e.g: insta gib and ctf. I don't know if it's me being on the west coast, but I can't find anything other than duels, and I'm not interested in getting my ass beat 100% of the time by those who spend MONTHS practicing movement. I don't mind spending a couple of days, but months? No, I'm good. Personally, the movement does not feel intuitive and when I started to break those bad habits, the movement system still seemed too damn hard to master. If it didn't take so long to feel natural, then I'd be all over it. And those that practiced it for long stretches are people in low ranks! I actually got to silver by losing every duel match, which I found hilarious.

I just want to be able to improve by playing the game. Not by having to practice mechanics outside of the actual game. Those that want to be competitive will do that sort of thing, because to be competitive is doing a lot of that in any game. In this game it just feels mandatory, and that's not fun to me. In the end, there's a giant wall in front of this game to many new players, and I'm afraid time is running out if it's not brought down soon.

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5 hours ago, capo said:

Heh the problem is i swear to god on 99% only the complicated movement. I have not much quake background, i played a lot a lot unreal back in days, then doom cs 1.5. If you make the movement more easier somehow. You got the player base probably. Like i swear its not really fun practice some dumb jumps for hours. People want play and frag, kill :D. Movement is 99% in this game. Everyone can aim nowadays. Tell w/e you want about some strategies but the movement is everything here. And i told before, doing some dumb jumps for bolts for hours when you miss the pad by centimeters etc, is just dumb. You got later on somehow. But make the jump succesful on 99% all time is maybe 150 hours of reflex. 150 hours of just stress, nervous, and kill ratio 0.001, This is not fun -_-. We need just some good settings for people which want just play something new, with great netcode, different graphics. And then ofc have pure vanilla settings for "stuff". This is really not 2000 when ppl just grinded one game 14 hours a day to being best. People nowadays play a lot games. OW, csgo, h1z1, quake etc...

i dont agree here that movement is a major part and too hard

just have a look at rocket league. the real pros do air movement that i am not even close be able to do after round about 700hours

and its the most successful game on steam

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52 minutes ago, def said:

just have a look at rocket league. the real pros do air movement that i am not even close be able to do after round about 700hours

and its the most successful game on steam

Notice that in Rocket League you don't need to be free stylin' like a pro to get a boost or to score a goal.

In Reflex you need to circle jump, strafe jump, double jump etc. just to get a weapon...

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I've already addressed these issues but maybe I wasn't being specific enough but to put it quite simply there is a learning curve to just being able to play Duels "casually" especially considering I'd say roughly 95% of FPS players nowadays on Steam haven't touched an Arena Shooter and or have shown any interest in playing them because AFPS games like Quake have always been considered hardcore. To just be able to play Duel at a competent level you need to learn to move faster than 500ups, use weapons correctly, and have at least an understanding of what Armor cycling is... to the newer player this seems tedious and boring for just being able to play the game. The reason why Reflex needs more objective based team game modes is because the more casual audience that will fuel this game will get a sense of accomplishment out of fragging their opponent and capturing objectives. Can map makers please make maps for CTF and KovaaK's Attack/Defend idea? I feel as if we all acknowledge the fact that Reflex needs to change up a bit to gain any sort of audience but we're all pulling in different directions half the time. So while the game is still new, let's make up our minds before game dies out, aight?

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On 4/7/2017 at 6:18 PM, seekax said:

I think no matter how transparent the game is it won't take off because it's lacking the social aspect.

I'll be brutally honest this is why I've given up on Reflex.  It will never have a large enough community to support team modes or even a good 24/7 FFA server.  I don't think this is fixable now.  Reflex botched all the big free press it had.  The initial version was released too early without good netcode.  The CTF release came out with one map of questionable quality.  The recent release had an opportunity to push team modes again but instead we got too many match making options to guarantee no one plays anything but duel.  I feel like team modes were mostly ignored during development in favor of duel (the game balance is duel focused too).  For years teams modes were broken without the ability to lock teams.

When Reflex was announced years ago I was hyped.  I expected a hardcore AFPS and it is.  The problem is Reflex is essentially CPM.  That I was not expecting.  I thought it would be a hardcore AFPS inspired by Quake/CPM but doing innovative new things.  The only major gameplay innovation was item timers and let us be honest that was a debacle.  The design I've heard rumors of with the stake gun sounded innovative but the general public never saw it.

At the end of the day CPM has never been popular and never will be.  It was designed by committee for political purposes to appease fans of Q1-Q2-Q3 while trying to bring them together.  It didn't work back then and it isn't working now.  CPM has no real weaknesses but I'd also say it has no real strengths.  I actually think CPM was better when it had 100 damage fast rail.  At least then it had an extreme and was absolutely brutal.  Then CPM ended up like QL with everything over balanced into blandess.  Reflex is similar.  With Diabotical and QC coming soon I'm expecting one of them will fill the team void I've been looking for and Reflex will just be a memory.

For the record I bought multiple copies and got friends to buy copies too.  I ran a 2v2 league about two years ago.  I more than did my part supporting and trying to make Reflex succeed but sometimes you have to acknowledge reality.  While I had fun in Reflex it never had the magic I felt in QW TDM for instance.  Most of that magic came from intense competitive team modes and the community around it.  In PVP games players are the content and you need a critical mass of them to be sustainable.

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24 minutes ago, Fastidious said:

I'll be brutally honest this is why I've given up on Reflex.  It will never have a large enough community to support team modes or even a good 24/7 FFA server.  I don't think this is fixable now.  Reflex botched all the big free press it had.  The initial version was released too early without good netcode.  The CTF release came out with one map of questionable quality.  The recent release had an opportunity to push team modes again but instead we got too many match making options to guarantee no one plays anything but duel.  I feel like team modes were mostly ignored during development in favor of duel (the game balance is duel focused too).  For years teams modes were broken without the ability to lock teams.

When Reflex was announced years ago I was hyped.  I expected a hardcore AFPS and it is.  The problem is Reflex is essentially CPM.  That I was not expecting.  I thought it would be a hardcore AFPS inspired by Quake/CPM but doing innovative new things.  The only major gameplay innovation was item timers and let us be honest that was a debacle.  The design I've heard rumors of with the stake gun sounded innovative but the general public never saw it.

At the end of the day CPM has never been popular and never will be.  It was designed by committee for political purposes to appease fans of Q1-Q2-Q3 while trying to bring them together.  It didn't work back then and it isn't working now.  CPM has no real weaknesses but I'd also say it has no real strengths.  I actually think CPM was better when it had 100 damage fast rail.  At least then it had an extreme and was absolutely brutal.  Then CPM ended up like QL with everything over balanced into blandess.  Reflex is similar.  With Diabotical and QC coming soon I'm expecting one of them will fill the team void I've been looking for and Reflex will just be a memory.

For the record I bought multiple copies and got friends to buy copies too.  I ran a 2v2 league about two years ago.  I more than did my part supporting and trying to make Reflex succeed but sometimes you have to acknowledge reality.  While I had fun in Reflex it never had the magic I felt in QW TDM for instance.  Most of that magic came from intense competitive team modes and the community around it.  In PVP games players are the content and you need a critical mass of them to be sustainable.

Fucking agreed 100%, game is empty.

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3 hours ago, def said:

i dont agree here that movement is a major part and too hard

just have a look at rocket league. the real pros do air movement that i am not even close be able to do after round about 700hours

and its the most successful game on steam

Uh you are comparing gamepad game with afps. LMAO I mean when people go play games like fifa, nhl or even rocket league they are awared about the movement. I never played rocket league but i think the game will still less stressful and fun to play for newbies at start.

The way only reflex can get more players is either make it perfect for CPMA players (but i think this is  bad idea bcz they will complain about reflex and play cpma anyway) or make it more friendly for newbies. When they jump to game, they will have fun spend hours. But its probably more complicated... 

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3 hours ago, def said:

i dont agree here that movement is a major part and too hard

just have a look at rocket league. the real pros do air movement that i am not even close be able to do after round about 700hours

and its the most successful game on steam

In my first 20 hours experience of Rocket League I never seen anyone hitting ball mid air. I learnt about whole flying stuff later on and by watching streams.

When RL launched, nobody knew how to push it to the limits.

When Reflex was in early development it was already figured out to the maximum.

AFPS is too established, every "true AFPS" is doomed to face low new players count because almost all of them are too similar to older games. Old players learn game too fast and for new players it takes too long to catch up.

But if you slightly change game, then people instantly cry how it's too casual and not "real AFPS" anymore. So in that regard Quake Champions hopefully will do great.

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I think such incremental changes to duel, like kovaak suggests in the first post, wont cut it at all to increase appeal to new players. I would introduce another gamemode alltogether, with much more radical changes. I think team-modes are out of the question (player-base not enough by far for that) so it got to be 1v1. I would take Hooney-mode and try to improve on that. For those who dont know Hooneymode: its exactly like normal 1v1, except after a frag, both players respawn at starting positions and all items respawn too. So you get a fresh start after each frag and dont get stomped on for 10 minutes straight. Its a bit like tennis. Of course a new player will be destroyed too, but the learing is MUCH easier when you get to start over after each frag, instead of getting pummeled by a stacked player for 10 minutes.

 

I would also simplify default ffa and make it more arena like. Spawn with all weapons and 100/100, no self-damage. Its hard to watch new players walk around with the burstgun for 10 minutes and having no clue whats going on..

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wrote a big rant ... then deleted it, because it won't change a thing. It's time to stop getting a headache because of Reflex.

 

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You've got to ask the Question, WHY would a new player play reflex? What is there to offer? why would a player who has never heard of AFPS play reflex on a regular basis?

There is NO reason to. You can bang on about this or that but bottom line is, the only reason to play Reflex is self improvement. IF that shit isn't for you (spoiler alert 99% of the world don't give a shit) then Reflex isn't your game.

The only game mode that sees any playtime is duel, and that takes the concept of controlling pickups to the extreme. Reflex is a game that requires & Rewards excellence, and it takes along time (and alot of work) to refine your skills to be excellent. People don't want video games to feel like WORK. The last thing people want to do when they get home from work, believe it or not... is MORE WORK.

To really put the nail in the coffin, Reflex doesn't do anything new, there is not 1 thing reflex does that has not been done in some capacity by other AFPS in the past. ALL reflex has to offer is gameplay, and even that is a far cry from what has come before it.

 

 

 

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People have expressed support for Quake Champions and I know the NDA is still under effect so I can't talk too much about it, but I have serious issues about the base balance of the game.  As it stands, I can't imagine any game mode providing depth due to the design limitations they have put on themselves with such tiny maximum stacks and every weapon being quite strong.  The idea of separate champions with different movement physics is great and I don't mind the idea of active abilities at all, but there is no way it will succeed with hardcore audiences due to the way they are cornering themselves with the weapon/stack balance.

19 minutes ago, Joe said:

Reflex doesn't do anything new, there is not 1 thing reflex does that has not been done in some capacity by other AFPS in the past. ALL reflex has to offer is gameplay, and even that is a far cry from what has come before it.

I have to disagree there.  Reflex is the first AFPS with netcode of its kind (it can be quirky at times, but at moderate pings it is significant better than any alternative), a built-in multiplayer map editor + in-game steam workshop support (hence the 700+ maps on the workshop), and the LUA UI functionality.  The game is highly responsive and has excellent visibility.  Because of these reasons, I feel that Reflex is in a better position to succeed than any other game in the genre.  If only we could get the right combination of gameplay changes, awesome/fun casual modes, and advertising.

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19 minutes ago, KovaaK said:

Reflex is the first AFPS with netcode of its kind (it can be quirky at times, but at moderate pings it is significant better than any alternative), a built-in multiplayer map editor + in-game steam workshop support (hence the 700+ maps on the workshop), and the LUA UI functionality.  The game is highly responsive and has excellent visibility.  Because of these reasons, I feel that Reflex is in a better position to succeed than any other game in the genre.  If only we could get the right combination of gameplay changes, awesome/fun casual modes, and advertising.

Netcode is good -> yes.

Map editor is good? Yes and No. Technically...yes, but in reality those 700+ on the WS you are mentioning are pointless and a big reason WHY there are so many utterly useless maps is because of how accessible the editor is. Is it good? What's the networth here?

LUA functionality ... personally i think a highly (!!) customizable UI is highly overrated and the whole LUA stuff has brought in issues which shouldn't even be there and the truly useful widgets ... let's just say: they should be native in the game anyways.

The engine is great...and yes it has good visibility. Visibility that comes with a trade-off ...which is the art-style... which limits the games customizability. I think we can both agree that QC is miles ahead in that regard, but ofc Bethesda/ID has way more resources to work with.

Reflex does have a good foundation .... but it also comes with a questionable execution and no marketing budget, as it seems.

 

The real question is: do we think Reflex can get bigger, just by doing gameplay changes? I'd honestly say... no. At least not by an amount worth mentioning.

 

PERSONALLY.... i'd totally vote +1 for a duel+team-mode only f2p version of Reflex. F2P often sounds like the last resort of a "failed" indie-game... but let's be honest: it's not far away*.

 

Regards

 

*i'm not saying Reflex failed.... but if it wants to grow larger, it failed. If 100 concurrent players and a nearly dead competitive scene is considered a success, fine.

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39 minutes ago, KovaaK said:

People have expressed support for Quake Champions and I know the NDA is still under effect so I can't talk too much about it, but I have serious issues about the base balance of the game.  As it stands, I can't imagine any game mode providing depth due to the design limitations they have put on themselves with such tiny maximum stacks and every weapon being quite strong.  The idea of separate champions with different movement physics is great and I don't mind the idea of active abilities at all, but there is no way it will succeed with hardcore audiences due to the way they are cornering themselves with the weapon/stack balance.

I have to disagree there.  Reflex is the first AFPS with netcode of its kind (it can be quirky at times, but at moderate pings it is significant better than any alternative), a built-in multiplayer map editor + in-game steam workshop support (hence the 700+ maps on the workshop), and the LUA UI functionality.  The game is highly responsive and has excellent visibility.  Because of these reasons, I feel that Reflex is in a better position to succeed than any other game in the genre.  If only we could get the right combination of gameplay changes, awesome/fun casual modes, and advertising.

right that's all well and good but they all tie directly into the gameplay of reflex which isnt even on par with whats come before it.

Who gives a fuck about netcode, MM UI etc (all are directly linked to gameplay) when the gameplay is crap? All of those features are icing on the cake, and the cake is currently shit.

With the map editor if you throw a noob in there they wont have a clue what to do. When they figure it out or watch a tutorial they might throw something together and play it with a friend. They might even have fun, but will quickly realise ahh actually the maps pretty crap and it was fun for 5 minutes but not anymore. They will realise no1 will play it unless they're serious about mapping & even then it would take a long time to make a really good map.

highly responsive and has excellent visibility has been done before in Q3/QL & CPMA and is a requirement for any competitive fps.

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I'll start by saying I am a strong believe that quake champions will not become successful (for its community) if it's team modes are stuck using the old fashioned classic tdm/ctf manner (but we've yet to see what they may have up their sleeve). And it is for the same reasons I see Reflex struggling, neither tdm or ctf or even ffa is casual friendly (sure you can drop in and out of ffa casually, but the mode is an empty shell if you aren't trying to cycle items play the meta etc.), I've been trying to write this up for a detailed and open post I want to make on /r/arenafps; the tl:dr of it is that the modes don't appear to have depth to a newcomer, they are nothing more than a run and gun simulator in their minds and a new player can be a heavy liability to his team if he/she doesn't understand the meta of those modes, causing a sort self-punishing feeling.

The real question here that I want to make is can Reflex implement a team based mode that supports a good amount of casual play and possibly spectatorship AND can the devs realistically implement this mode. The current CTF mode that was added is a classic example of us the community pushing the devs towards developing in the wrong direction. Anyway sure we could maybe come up with a good idea, what @KovaaK talks about with that one capture point I believe is perhaps a step in the right direction. It is a mode that I have been similarly trying to envision with my own mode, although the mode I have imagined myself is a different in many ways, it is also the same in many others; perhaps we can collectively form a mode like this and test it with the use of placeholders. I think I could hack a map to test that is similar to Kovaaks suggestion. But if there was to be a mode like this, then it really needs the full support of every single person in our community.

Now on another note: Firstly I think we can all agree that the game needs another layer of polish in the form of clarity, not clarity in visuals or style, but clarity in the games depth. The armor stuff that I've suggested is probably not enough on its own, but small things like this added is whats needed to progress a new players understanding of the game more quickly. Can we form ideas that we believe the devs can realistically implement??

and Secondly: Those that have expressed negative and defeatist views on the game even being possible to 'fix' I am sort of with you, but I am also against you; the problem for me is that your views are not helpful whether they are right or wrong. I do agree that the game could grind itself to death the way it is, and it's duel-mode being at the forefront and the core of the game could be part of its demise. Which is why certain things need changing.

Lastly and part of the above, I like that duel and 2v2 is the highlight for match-making, the other modes perhaps need to be removed from MM imo, and then a new mode that we can form needs to be at the forefront, ideally this mode would allow a player to learn the importance of picking up item, and therefore be the start of why they may want to try the intensive and challenging modes that are duel and 2v2.

 

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3 hours ago, A. Benz said:

wrote a big rant ... then deleted it, because it won't change a thing. It's time to stop getting a headache because of Reflex.

 

Наконец-то.

I'm agree with Joe's point of view: > You can bang on about this or that but bottom line is, the only reason to play Reflex is self improvement.
But there are actually a bit more people who is able to play Reflex and improve their play. If you visit https://lichess.org/ you will find that chess player base is huge (~17k playing right now) and chess is not fun game at all & gameplay rules hadn't changed for a long time. Maybe afps genre should exist for like 1000 years to establish & be popular. So I think it's not gameplay problem at all (but it needs improvements for sure (see rockets)). I played qc a bit, and would say that every weapon in this game is op except machinegun, in reflex it's usually shaft with insane knokback. My point is to find the way to make reflex less frustrating for new people.

The problem is: There are no new players because there are no new players. To avoid this devs should implement this things below.

  1. New players should play vs bots or new players no exceptions. Placements should be only vs new guys, not Rama.
  2. The game should have interactive tutorial. Existing one is good, but need some new chapters about flow of duel game & maybe even about choosing right pc setup with monitor, mouse, mousepad and sensetivity for it. Kovaak's videos is only good series of tutorials right now, glad to see the link in the game at least. Should implement promeus map reflex_train in official maps & recommend it to every new player (or create the similar one). There is need to create a big alert for first launch of the game with recommendation to take complete tutorials.
  3. BOTS BOTS BOTS. Not stupid bullshit, recreate cpm bots, they are really good. Create bots to practice when there are no people around, smart bots create smart play & understanding the flow of the game, smart play & understanding the flow of the game creates less frustration.
  4. Weapon balance. I like "new" plasma & shotgun, but there is still a weapon which is unbalanced bad. I'm talking about rocket and its strange delay after hitting the mouse button to fire on client & creating projectile on server. I tried to explain why this is bad, but seems like community are good with it. The game forces to use shaft in 90% of fights. Need to fix rockets & nerf shaft a bit (I mean knokback). Many new players love to use rockets & don't like to use shaft.
  5. The game should have a sign about frustration hell in competitive 1v1. Devs should start to work with casual & team modes, Reflex is bad with many players on server. New players would play casual instead duels.
  6. MM servers. They are not ready for many players. We saw that after release, that was really bad stuff. And pls make linux version for servers (Almost 3 years with server for windows only)
  7. Free2Play or Free Weekend to make reflex stats great again.
  8. New maps or the transparent system of implementing new maps in map-pools. Devs should encourage map-makers, tournament organizers & so on. I watched release trailer and haven't seen nicknames of map-makers & some players, was very dissapointed.
  9. VoIP for teammodes.
  10. The ingame demo list.
  11. Implemented hosting for tournaments with rank restrictions. Like gold cups, bronze cups and etc.
  12. Ban dk / benz & develop the culture in game chat. Ban multi-accs guys (Rama pls send reflex accs to your friends). It's not fun playing vs smurfs & german angry kids.
  13. And the last but not least, devs.. Pls believe in your product, when we see that you're improving the game with all your heart, it creates a feeling, which would not let us quit from you & your game. There was so much enthusiasm after releasing first version, even after failed kickstarter company.

The biggest part is tutorial system. But there are still so much work to do to make this game quite popular.

About Reflex competition with QuakeChampions, I think qc will increase the whole afps genre, so Reflex might have new players because of it. Reflex is a great game, but release was too early, release hype was missed for nothing.

Sorry for broken English. And yes. The game needs cyrrilic chat as well or utf8 chat. I think Asian guys don't like current ascii chat either.

 

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1 hour ago, w96k said:

playing vs smurfs & german angry kids.

Toxicity and smurfs are unavoidable in a competitive video game. That's not to say everybody should stop caring and go full no impulse control or that toxic people shouldn't strive to improve their attitude (making people not hate your guts is a pretty good life skill anyhow), but personally, I don't think you can blame devs for toxic community members and you definitely can't expect them to fix it either.

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2 hours ago, Pill_ said:

 I don't think you can blame devs for toxic community members and you definitely can't expect them to fix it either.

Some system with likes and dislikes in kind of "wise", "cute" and "fag". Or ESEA karma system. So if u all time raging and shittalking - u will fired out from MM for a while (but also must be counter-system for prevent fake dislikes). Probably with additional rating and prizes for that.

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The only reason to play any AFPS is self improvement. People really did appreciate that factor a lot more back a decade than now, which is why Q3 and derivatives could flourish then. Nowadays nobody cares about being wrecked around, so they go for easier, more approachable and casualized titles where they feel like they can win no matter how much effort they put in. If it feels too hard, nobody will watch it, hence there will be no esports and no further following, because games succeed nowadays by building up fame. CPMA, and soon Reflex, has a fame of super wacky shit for nerdy tryhards - you can't build a following around this.

And that is ok. If you feel like gameplay is shit, these games are not for you. It's highly unfair to call Quake Champions an Arena FPS, because the genre has been defined by titles you may find classical and obsolete and QC is a far cry from them. Changing up the formula for the sake of refreshing it is not what 'refreshing' is, you're essentially doing something else. If you find QC fun, go play it - don't whine that Reflex is boring or whatever, just accept that the game is not for you. It's a medium you can express yourself in, a set of tools to explore yourself in a both entertaining and challenging way. There's been so many dumbed down titles that came out along the years, surely there must be a fit to be found there?

Another note: I was highly surprised by the fact that there's been so many people (many in terms of AFPS, which is like a couple) in awe over old fragmovies from VQ3/CPM playing on ddk's stream last evening. Turns out people do not understand how fun these games can be, just get to listen to OW/QC shilling and how old games are boring/filled with tryhards. If you really want to help Reflex grow, how about trying to not be such an ass in chats and forums and making a good impression on those who care only about impressions and experiences?

A lot of good technical suggestions have been thrown around, I'm totally down with better interactive introductions and explanations for how to play and win in certain modes. The armor thing that's been flying around lately is a major thing, turns out. Good marketing will go a long way too.

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yakcyll is right about the "self improvement" factor in reflex duels. I mean its a lot hard manage and get some good and some satisfying rank. In duels you cant get lucky/carried/boosted like in team games csgo or overwatch. I saw so many high ranks LEM and more which were really just bad but somehow felt like they are the shit. :D In reflex its different hit diamond rank or more in duels is really a lot of work and practice/patience though the playere base is smaller now. I really wish i had more time to play now 1v1. Bcz this mode is just more about play 6 hours every other day to play good and shit. But its really so fun and make you so happy inside. Its not like CSGO ranks where even when you hit ranks LEM+ you dont feel so proud about it. (maybe for a min) :D Kids need to find Reflex 1v1 can make them better  and succesful  persons. :D

I think if we really find some solution how to get the casuals to action. Make it fancy/enjoyable for everyone and behind you will have top players like kyto, kovaak etc with their highest ranks the game has really great chance and it can be one of the best game for 1v1 or 2v2. 

How you noticed i really talk just about duels more or less bcz find the fun/great gamemode for afps is seems hard. Some bomd/defuse when? :D But really reflex is great but its rather for older players or players which just say myself I hit the high rank, i have dosen of times, i just will make it. (1v1). But there is really not many players like dat i think.

But 

 

edit ignore the but there i am done :D

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Posted (edited)

I don't think the issue is that the game is too difficult, people in general do appreciate challenge and don't necessarily gravitate towards easier games. I think the problem with Reflex and AFPS in general with respect to player retention is that the game's required skillset is largely hidden to new players. Like Kovaak said, it's a foggy pit with no bottom in sight. Any newbie can understand that good players move faster, control the map and aim better, but they can't understand how they do these things. They won't know the maps, they don't know where the items and weapons spawn, they won't know how to move fast. Only aiming skill is immediately obvious to anyone familiar with FPS, and even then the new player won't have any idea about how important map knowledge and positioning are to hitting your shots.

So, they'll see the veterans play, but they can't really appreciate the game's insane skill ceiling because they don't understand what the veteran players are doing. For example, they can't really enjoy watching tournament streams like we can, which obviously won't help the game get popular. I don't think there's an easy solution to this, but in my opinion we shouldn't alter the base gameplay as that's not the issue with this game. The issue is the game's mechanical obscurity; the fact that to start learning the game you need to learn the maps, where the items spawn, how to time them, how to cycle them, where the spawns are, what weapon works best in which area of the map, how the movement works, etc (not to mention the countless hours of practice it takes to get competent at these skills), and the game doesn't really guide new players to developing in these areas. I suppose one thing that would help is better tutorials, such as taking a new player through all the popular maps, and they need to pick up all weapons and items on the map to proceed to the next one. New players should also be matched against each other (obviously), and they should be guided towards game modes that aren't as overwhelming, such as ATDM, where they don't need to worry about picking up weapons and items and can focus on developing their combat skills, and race to develop their movement. Perhaps an in-depth tutorial for the game's movement mechanics would also help, as I feel the current tutorials don't really give enough insight for a new player to start learning them.

Edited by Vie
typo
matt_au, Fastidious, Jaguar and 3 others like this

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Posted (edited)

1v1 is great and all, but there needed to be more effort made on the team aspect of the game. CTF is the most casual, but it still looks like nothing, has no real structure, much communication or real 'hard' teamplay. TDM suffers from many of the same issues as 1v1 - its possible to get locked out of the map really hard, and doesnt have any structure or hard objectives. you dont get a real feel that you are playing with your team. The Arena modes are by definition clusterfucks, and are fun for a little bit, but you arent ever going to get players really interested in them. 

 

fyi kovaak, the default UT4 teammode will be similar to what you are suggesting - its called flag run. personally, i think its a bit sterile and would prefer something a bit more fluid, but with some similarities. 

I've mentioned it before, but the best model for Reflex would have been to go with the Severity model - 2 gamemodes: classic 1v1 and a 3v3/5v5 objective teambased mode. You could include a sandbox ffa in there too - basicly like warmup mode ffa currently. 

 

as for what my ideal teammode would look like:

-5 capture points to be captured in sequence A B C D E
-symmetrical maps
-2 teams X&Y
-1 ball
-ball possession needed to capture points
-capping the enemy start point = win/1point
-carrying the ball provides damage powerup that scales with # of points held. the more points held, the less the damage multiplier and -vice versa. min/max x1/x4.
-max hp/ap scales with # of points held. the more points held, the more hp/ap you can have. ball carrier can still shoot obviously.
-you spawn @ 100/0 and regen up over time. regen mechanics tbc - ie, out of combat for x seconds? regen spots around the map? etc. 
-all weapons? classes? tbd.
-respawn @ the 2nd furthest owned from front cp? or at closest? tbd 
-drop packs on death?

-5 second spawn waves or 5 delay to spawn?

-ball carrier visible to all through walls etc?

-@game start
-X spawns at A
-Y spawns at E
-ball spawns at C
-C is neutral
-A & B owned by X
-D & E owned by Y

-X wants to cap C D E in sequence and Y the opposite.

 

The goal is to have a gametype that has the framework for really strong teamplay such as the attack/defend nature, the need to escort/protect the ball carrier, the fact that at any given time, there is only one 'direction' of play, and 1 objective meaning that combat will be more about 5v5 teamfights rather than having all the players spread out all over the map. meanwhile, there are mechanics to allow teams to close games out methodically by being more stacked etc, but also comeback mechanics with the scaling damage amplifier. its 'casual' in the sense that you spawn with a basic loadout of weapons and armor and in sync with your teammates in a 'protected' area but also competitive as there is a big focus on teamplay, but the importance of the ball carrier mean that individual skill is still a big thing. it also helps for spectating that there is 1 point of view that will be more 'important' than the others at any given time - the ball carrier. its also relatively easy to implement, as CTF maps can be easily converted.

Edited by thelawenforcer
Fastidious, lolograde and bej like this

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Posted (edited)

Wow, very active thread! I haven't read all the comments but here's my two cents: To get and retain newbies, we need more "fun" modes. FFA and instagib are classics but there should probably be more variety. Give newbies time to feel more confident about their skills before they start playing MM. And I would make a MM where these modes rotate. Instead of queuing up for just "FFA" which could be FFA Instagib or whatever, it could rotate around various FFA modes. 

Here's some mode ideas:

"ZOMBIES": Round based. At the start of each round, 1 player is chosen to be the first "zombie". They have no weapons (except melee), full 200/200 stack, extra speed boost, and are "infected" (basically, they have a bright green "carnage" damage amplifier). As a zombie, you can melee the ground to do a jump but with no self-damage. When the zombie melees someone, the melee'd player doesn't die but also becomes a "zombie". Round ends when either all zombies are dead OR every player is a zombie. You get 1 point for every second you're not a zombie. # of rounds depends on the number of players in the game.

"ODDBALL": 10 or 15mins, team or FFA.  A "ball" is spawned somewhere on the map and a player can pick it up by walking over it. When they hold the ball, they accumulate points. The person who holds the ball cannot shoot any weapons but they have resist and carnage buffs. They can use the ball to melee. The ball also obeys physics so you can shoot a rocket at it and it'll bounce around. (Basically, this is a rip off of an old Halo 1 game mode.).

"KING OF THE HILL": 10 or 15mins, team or FFA. Accumulate points by standing in a given area on a map. 

"FREEZETAG": You know this one...

I'm sure there's many more ideas out there for fun modes. I know @thelawenforcer has quite a few ideas...

Edited by lolograde
wrjthe and fuglaa like this

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21 hours ago, w96k said:

Weapon balance. I like "new" plasma & shotgun, but there is still a weapon which is unbalanced bad. I'm talking about rocket and its strange delay after hitting the mouse button to fire on client & creating projectile on server. I tried to explain why this is bad, but seems like community are good with it. The game forces to use shaft in 90% of fights. Need to fix rockets & nerf shaft a bit (I mean knokback). Many new players love to use rockets & don't like to use shaft.

This is brought up so often that I believe you. I believe you do experience a delay. But I do not and I do not think it affects everyone. That's why some people may be "good with it" -- because they do not experience any delay. I'm not sure why there should be delay for some users and not others. Are there delays with any other weapons? Like GL? 

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