KovaaK

We need to talk about the state of the game.

140 posts in this topic

Option 2 sounds like it'd be a fun mode just in its own right. As someone who likes the focus to be on the shooting and less about control, I'd probably prefer that mode over duel. With that said, I definitely don't think it should replace duel as we have it now. Too many people know and love the current version of duel and I honestly don't think we should be doing anything that would get rid of it. Having option 2 as its own mode might be cool, though. 

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For the Noobs:

-More training levels especially for movement (like parkour station 1st floor style) 

-Better bots that are easy to set up on any map/game mode (co-op too)

-Lock competitive mode until hard training levels are completed

For the Casuals: 

-Drop in/out quick play servers

-Rematch button and game mode votes available for MM

-More than 3 player FFA etc.

-New game modes especially slower paced ones like freezetag or 1 life per round stuff

For the Pros:

-Make "Approved" widgets only for competitive mode

-Tier cosmetics/sprays for highest rank reached per season

-Rotate maps per season

 

The official release was definitely rushed, but this game is too good for us to let die when all we need to do is make more approachable and advertise it better

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16 hours ago, hArD_a$$_nIqQa said:

i don't know how gametypes are represented/handled in the game's code but i can't imagine it would require a full rewrite to implement some lua hooks for gametype stuff. furthermore, giving gametype scripting abilities to players is not incompatible with matchmaking. for instance, the devs could have a matchmaking playlist that plays a set of hand-picked popular/good custom gametypes that are cycled out every month or something

another thing to keep in mind is that not everyone wants to play matchmaking. i dont like how duel plays in this game and i dont give a shit about it

well, it wouldn't necessarily involve a full rewrite, but it would involve another layer of code on top of the existing stuff - you'd have to add the stuff so that the game can process the scripts etc. there would also be bugs etc. not to say its not doable etc, but it would take a while to complete and have it working bug free etc. not to mention the documentation needed to allow content creators to start working on modes etc.

matchmaking is more about having a queuing system so that games can seamlessly organised and played etc. what would be great would be a sort of mix like you suggest - perhaps an 'official' teammode that is always included in matchmaking, and then a rotating slot for custom gametypes that changes every few weeks or something. that way it exposes new gametypes, allows them to be played and enjoyed etc, without cluttering the queuing system with too many options.

ideally we'd get both, a great official teammode, and the ability to make our own with some kind of support from the dev team exposure wise etc. you never know, some genius idea might get cooked up and transform the FPS genre, like other mods have before!

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5 hours ago, thelawenforcer said:

ideally we'd get both, a great official teammode, and the ability to make our own with some kind of support from the dev team exposure wise etc. you never know, some genius idea might get cooked up and transform the FPS genre, like other mods have before!

this!!! without sufficient modding abilities counter-strike, rocket arena, cpm, dota, etc wouldn't exist

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Hi, I'm a casual. Been playing Overwatch since Closed Beta back in like November 2015. Recently got into Quake (beat 1's campaign, didn't touch 2 too much yet, 3 and team arena's single player, played a lot of bots on Quake Live, some players, then got into the Quake Champions beta-- won't break NDA but, well, I decided to check out this "Reflex" I'd heard about). I'll probably never really master the various movement stuff, but I can effectively use some of it, and that's good enough for me, slowly trying to incorporate the other stuff over time. It's fun, and your community is so great, it's the least intimidating thing I've ever done. Challenging, but not scary at all to play. That's good. You guys are so cool, I'm blown away over here.

What arena FPS does well in my opinion is, well, a lot of things, but to me just the satisfaction of the core experience of fragging feels great in a good arena FPS. Overwatch, for many complex reasons, sometimes starts to feel like not even playing an FPS after a long period of time. Burnout set in for me after a long time, and I believe it will come for other players as well giving Reflex a solid shot at grabbing the people who miss not being funneled into each other with free kill buttons. I love Overwatch, but I missed playing an FPS game. I still play Overwatch though-- I have no intention of "quitting". What Reflex does well is its respect for the core, its respect for minimalism, the high customization that belongs in a proper PC FPS game, and really bringing that good core experience to the modern age with a gorgeous aesthetic that miraculously doesn't compromise the readability-- even for noobs like me who probably need as much as we can get.

I don't personally want to see Reflex dumbed down at all. I think people need to properly "discover" it, and discover what's good about it. I don't want to say it "needs advertising" because I don't know how much it might already have, but when I gave it to my friends they said "How did you find this gem?". They're not big into arena FPS-- at least they weren't until Reflex. Those tutorial videos are amazing and I love them dearly-- but it is probably true that in-game thorough tutorials with really good feedback and noob friendly UI to teach all the essential movement stuff would go a long way.

But truthfully, I don't know the core appeal needs to be to get casuals like me to jump in and learn all the movement techniques or the meta stuff. I'll tell you what I personally want-- I would love to have enough players to just jump in and, I'll say it, just enjoy the core act of kinda mindlessly fragging against people of my own potato skill level. That's why I'm here. Jump in and frag. Don't want fancy gimmicks. Don't know if I'll ever really reliably be able to execute every type of jump. Don't really even care if I ever properly learn pickup timers and control (even though I probably will at some point down the line). Shameful, I know. I'm simple, I've accepted that. Right now I fight players way better than me, and I don't mind because hey, if I can frag these old gods every now and then-- that's enough for me, don't mind the challenge, don't mind losing, and I can always fight the bots because they can challenge me without stomping me. I like that I'm here, I'm playing an FPS, I don't have to play support because nobody else will, and I don't have to deal with a team tilting at each other/never grouping up. The simplicity and the purity is the entire appeal to me-- which of course helps explain why I love Reflex specifically-- because it loves respecting the core.

Free to play weekend-- or just free to play doesn't sound half bad to me I guess? (I know I'd buy the cosmetics to support. Dare you to make one head look like a lootbox) But I definitely don't have the knowledge to say whether or not that would help or kill the game. Probably a lot of higher level understanding goes into a choice like that. I know I wouldn't be mad if I paid to buy all these copies and it went free to play tomorrow.

I'm not gonna say that I represent all casuals, not gonna say that I'm "objectively correct" in how I look at this, in fact, I don't even have "suggestions" for how to make Reflex get players and keep players. You could easily look at this post and tear apart my "points", I'm sure of that, because I'm not really even trying to make any points. I just wanted to provide my own perspective as some (hopefully) brutally honest insight into one casual mind.

Thanks for reading! And feel free to go easy on me in-game-- won't be needing my pride here!

give me a cowboy hat cosmetic i miss being a mccree main before we all learned what a teamcomp was

Sky, MD, Owl and 5 others like this

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What about working towards opening up the server code? A few years ago I used to play on CS surf servers. It's an extremely big community that has basically turned CS into a completely different game (at least in terms of gameplay, server infrastructure, map pool and there's a whole structure to it (A tier system, rankings, etc.)). If server administrators had minimal control over physics (through lua scripting) similar communities could form in Reflex. One way to implement this would be to move certain movement features into mutators. For example: Server administrators get to enable a movement speed cap to get CS KZ players involved, etc.

 

Those are just examples. The reason I bring them up is because those communities (KZ and Surf) are communities that have organically grown without any intervention from the devs. On top of that the map editor makes reflex the perfect game for those communities. Offering people more control over the physics coupled with an ad campaign targeted at specific communities could lead to way more exposure for reflex which will help with basically everything else (Lack of fair duels, lack of people playing matchmaking, etc.).

Obviously one would have to properly implement it, instead of just opening up the whole physics engine. That would just lead to confusion for new players because every server has different physics, etc. Maybe a good start would be to have a beta version of reflex that allows changing physics (completely separate from the core game) so people can write modifications, test them, etc. and then have a pipeline to introduce these modifications as official parts of the game. There's not even a need for the devs to let server admins run their own code. As long as there's a way for server admins to write code, test it and then submit it to the devs (ultimately resulting in the code being introduced to the core game) I think it could work.

I can see how splitting the community could be a bad consequence of implementing my proposal but I don't see how splitting the community (as it is right now) would be worse for new players. Expanding the number of players would far outweight the downsides.

 

Anyway, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

lumpp and hArD_a$$_nIqQa like this

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Maybe have a variety matchmaking game mode that could cycle between different team game types? It's hard to find matches when you can queue up for so many game types and the only one that gets you in a game consistently is duel. It sucks no one plays CA since that's what a lot of casual players in QL play.

Also it seems like a lot of people stopped using MM'ing in NA so now you have to queue up in public servers and have to wait 10-30 min, for a 10 min game, unable to play on other servers/practice, assuming you lose to better players. Sure this is how OG players got good but it's not appealing for new players and sitting in queue when you don't have much time to game is :(. MM'ing was great when I was starting out since I could go mess around in other servers or work on movement while waiting.

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12 hours ago, AwesomeAndy said:

The lack of dev response is kind of telling. Do they still give a fk?

The heck is this question? Is this Quake Live? I think the patch notes are kind of telling too.

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4 hours ago, HaraldQuake said:

Bump. Please devs, give us a sign what to expect. What are the plans to improve Teammode population in MM? What are you working on?

You should @ them, like so: @shooter @Electro @Yasashii

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On 2017-5-19 at 8:23 AM, HaraldQuake said:

Bump. Please devs, give us a sign what to expect. What are the plans to improve Teammode population in MM? What are you working on?

Random question, but did you finish porting Stalkyard to Reflex? Might buy the game if you have :)

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I heard of Reflex having played the QC beta the past few weeks and searching for a good FPS to play every few months, having played HL/AG for more hours than I care to remember from 1999-2003ish, which was a very difficult game to 'get very good at' and had a big problem in keeping new players. I guess because I was young and had an IRL mate who played it too I stuck with it, these days I would not have the time to devote to it. I mean seriously, when you reach 30+, who does? :)

From what I can tell, QL has had similar problems attracting new players albeit on a smaller scale and QC will have the exact same issue moving forwards I expect - I would bet most who end up playing it regularly will have moved from QL (assuming the game gets the thumbs up from that crowd). I do not understand it at all personally, OverWatch looks truly terrible and I could never get on board with CoD even though all my mates played it on consoles and online against each other (my mates are far from geeky types). 

Is there a good answer to get people playing any AFPS? I have held off buying Reflex as it is clear not many play it, even though I can tell from the videos I would enjoy it. I will probably go ahead in the next couple of days so I can play against bots, bunnyhop around a few maps and the like and play a few hours at least - but what then?  

---

Speaking of game modes, these might already have been mentioned but - two of the game modes in HL/AG that people would always play even if they were not particularly active were called 'Arena' and 'Arcade', Arena would basically involve two players spawning with full stack and all weapons and competing 1v1 to the death; winner stays on and you take it in turns in a queue system. This would give you the break between rounds, so you get some social interaction as well as a game mode that is easier to get decent at - it is just pure combat. I saw someone mention earlier that new players concentrate on getting better at combat, but not better at the game - well at least in this mode that would be more use. How you would then get these guys playing duels/TDM I have no idea. 

Arcade was similar but basically FFA with all weapons/full stack on spawning, which was good for the casual player but I found rather dull.

---

I will buy the game in the next couple of days as I really like the look of it, just hope I can find some decent FFA servers to begin with :-)

 

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4 hours ago, TimmyMagic said:

Speaking of game modes, these might already have been mentioned but - two of the game modes in HL/AG that people would always play even if they were not particularly active were called 'Arena' and 'Arcade', Arena would basically involve two players spawning with full stack and all weapons and competing 1v1 to the death; winner stays on and you take it in turns in a queue system. This would give you the break between rounds, so you get some social interaction as well as a game mode that is easier to get decent at - it is just pure combat. I saw someone mention earlier that new players concentrate on getting better at combat, but not better at the game - well at least in this mode that would be more use. How you would then get these guys playing duels/TDM I have no idea. 

Arcade was similar but basically FFA with all weapons/full stack on spawning, which was good for the casual player but I found rather dull.

---

 

 

Arena mutators and more are already in the game :) 

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On 05/23/2017 at 1:33 AM, TimmyMagic said:

Random question, but did you finish porting Stalkyard to Reflex? Might buy the game if you have :)

It's playable but it's not done. I stopped working on it. I'd like to finish it but I guess I don't have enough time and knowledge about map editing (need to know how to scale the whole map and add art and nice looking lighting in a performant way)

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On 2017-5-23 at 5:40 AM, Owl said:

Arena mutators and more are already in the game :) 

Yes, it was daft of me to put forward game modes that were almost certainly already in the game :-)

Having played the game I have to say I really enjoy it and am looking forward to tackling the movement challenges having seen the KovaaK videos. In HLDM/AG I only ever really used bunny-hopping/wall strafing, and that is all I really needed to play for the top clans - there was also little else available. It is quite amazing to look back and wonder how we all managed to get good at the game without tutorial videos, sure we had demos/each other and the like to watch but with these tutorial videos surely it would be immeasurably easier to help players get better? Back in 1999, if someone shot a casual through a wall with the Gauss in HLDM, they would likely just assume that person was cheating and rage quit, never to return :-)

I notice a theme however... Most of the servers/games I have played in have been on remakes of the classic Quake maps. Whilst it might be heresy to ask here, I do wonder why we need Reflex when QC is out any day now (and free)? Indeed, QL is still alive and kicking and has many more players. 

Do not get me wrong, I expect I will continue to play Reflex for a good while yet, I just don't see how you can make it more appealing to the casual crowd without fundamentally changing the game. I see the same problems hitting QC but perhaps the new Duel mode there will help it, the casual can only lose 3-0 and it does not last that long. Sacrifice also looks appealing to that crowd, although I have never played it. 

---

All that said - is there any clan structure in Reflex yet? Any leagues going for 4v4s/5v5s?

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now that quake champions is available for everyone to try and it's a busted mess can we get an update on planned features etc. you guys (the devs) should be thinking about ways to steal players from qc

Fastidious likes this

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you guys can try to capitalize on the diabotical audience too since that game's development has seemingly slowed down and there hasn't been an update posted since march. i can't be the only person who just wants a game where i play cool modes that aren't duel or clan arena right? @shooter @Electro @Yasashii

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I feel like the second idea could be made a bit more vet friendly by making item times reset and spawn at the same time every 2 or so minutes. So for example you can have a cycle going for a max of 2 minutes until the cycle is reset and all armors spawn at 2/4/8 minutes.

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7 hours ago, Messik said:

I feel like the second idea could be made a bit more vet friendly by making item times reset and spawn at the same time every 2 or so minutes. So for example you can have a cycle going for a max of 2 minutes until the cycle is reset and all armors spawn at 2/4/8 minutes.

For all intents and purposes Reflex has two selling points:

1. It's a pure arena fps

2. It has modern features

 

Without the first, the second is meaningless. Removing the first (aka doing anything to reduce the skill gap) will kill whatever is left of the game.

 

As for the rest of this thread, it's too late if you ask me. I had fun, hope you guys did too.

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3 hours ago, Pill_ said:

For all intents and purposes Reflex has two selling points:

1. It's a pure arena fps

2. It has modern features

 

Without the first, the second is meaningless. Removing the first (aka doing anything to reduce the skill gap) will kill whatever is left of the game.

 

As for the rest of this thread, it's too late if you ask me. I had fun, hope you guys did too.

classification as an "arena fps" doesn't have anything to do with the game's skill gap. you could lower the movement speed to 100ups and introduce footstep sounds and it would still be an arena fps, just a shitty one. if reflex had initially used the item respawn system that kovaak suggested i don't think anyone would have said that the game is not an "arena fps". before you get mad at me: i'm not trying to argue with you or hurt your feelings or ruin reflex for you or whatever, i swear. i just don't give a shit how experimental changes get in any arena fps going forward because every single game's community is dead to the point that if you are not a dueler or a clan arena player you will never be able to play ever.

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Messik said:

I feel like the second idea could be made a bit more vet friendly by making item times reset and spawn at the same time every 2 or so minutes. So for example you can have a cycle going for a max of 2 minutes until the cycle is reset and all armors spawn at 2/4/8 minutes.

Interesting idea, could be tried out as a mutator. However on the surface it does make timing more complicated: "item respawns x seconds after being picked" vs "item respawns x seconds after being picked OR every even minute". Losing control before the even minutes would be less bad aswell which feels kinda arbitrary (but then again it would give you a time when pushing would be less riskier and hence encourage that). But it does make the game less "hardcore" by giving handouts to out-of-control players.

If we're talking about making timing a less hidden part of the game, IMO timestamps should just be part of the default HUD and on by default. That really should send the message. Also the tutorial/training should for sure have a timing/cycling part.

Edited by Kyto

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warsow has more players than reflex right now and this is a big fucking alarm sound.

the devs can either put value in this game by marketing it, make more skins, more tutorials more tournaments etc or they will subdue to quake champions.

the single choice that the devs can make is to fix bugs add more value to the game and make it F2P

anybody that thinks otherwise are retards or dreamers

PERIOD

one more thing, you can all laugh about my stupid poll and my noobish /fanboish wishes about the game or about the fact that i say on discord that quake live has more value than reflex for the same price, even the russian cpma has more value for ffs, i don't care what you think but it is TRUE, if you don't see that you are a stupid kid and a retard.

i like this game, i like everything about it, but the devs aren't making $$ with 10 whiners as players.

+ beaton in his stupid autistic rages on youtube rounds more players to the game than anyone here

SO DO YOUR JOBS DEVS!! WE PAYED, WE WANT VALUE AND WE WANT IT NOW!

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As far as marketing, nothing works better than kickass movies, imo. Perhaps the devs could entice the community by putting up some money for a movie-making competition? Or, maybe more to the point, just pay @entik to go full James Cameron with Reflex. There is also "LAN" coming out soonish which may attract some attention as well. If QC does become successful, there will likely be those who want something purer and will turn to Reflex. Reflex is the only premier alternative AFPS currently. Diabotical doesn't appear close to release (at least, not until Spring 2018, according to 2GD's stream today) and other games are old, stale, and don't have the same features.

As for changes/updates, season 1 ends in a couple weeks, right? I would suspect that would be the best time for devs to make an update. 

Looking at the Steam reviews, it is currently rated Very Positively (88% positive after 1,068 reviews) with the one consistent complaint being player base. That's a better rating that Quake Live, Toxikk, or most other AFPS currently available on Steam. With the consistent complaint being small player base, I suspect some new players queue for CTF and end up waiting 20 mins. Instead, maybe there should be a "PLAY NOW" button that queues the player for any game mode, casual or competitive, and any server with up to 120ms (which is at the upper range of what I consider playable). New players probably have very little sense of what good or bad ping is, or what the various modes are. So for those who really just want to shoot around, kamikaze style, let them.

Lastly, the people with poor attitudes who want to blame the devs for everything need to take a breath.

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I don't want to blame the devs. I just think they could communicate a bit better towards their community. i already bought the game for me and some of my friends. I also bought supporter items. I just want the game to proceed and succeed as a vivid and fresh AFPS. For this to happen we need 1 primary competetive team gamemode to concentrate players on. Personally I would like to see TDM to be that mode. The game just lacks social aspects to be a popular choice for Teams. Yes the game offers many modes but sometimes less is more. I will continue playing and supporting reflex but it's hard to promote the game to friends for it's teammodes when nobody plays teammodes. And there are many reasons for this:

1. The Carnage Powerup is too powerful and not many people like it. Either because it's too hard to control (compared to QC there is no 15 second carnage spawn warning in the game yet) or because it makes games with slightly unbalanced teams very unbalanced. Clan Arena is very popular because it's always 'balanced' and easy to understand.

2. There is not much official content for TDM. Most maps are made by the community and nobody knows which maps are good because TDM isn't played much.

3. Also most TDM maps don't look modern and professional, because TDM maps are often big and it costs a lot of performance to fill them with art. When it comes to art, Reflex has no coherent style. Some maps just look like prototype map blockouts (for a modern 10$ game the standard should be higher), other maps have only few art and only very few maps (like sanctum for example) really use Reflex's Art how it's supposed to be done in 2017. Sure it's also a problem to have such an old nitpicky community most of them only care for the raw skill and are used to play on shitty graphics. However if Reflex wants to succeed and get more attention in the public, the game has to use a coherent style and it should look better and more modern than it's predecessor from ~18 years ago.

3. There aren't any ladders or tournaments and even matchmaking doesn't work how it's supposed to be. People only care for their Duel ranks (if at all), there are no known teams and there is no place to assemble all reflex clans (maybe because Reflex has no main competetive team gamemode to polarise players) and to view their reputation.

To sum it up: The game doesn't do anything much better than Quake CPMA besides lighting and effects, duel matchmaking, melee cosmetics, the ability to map in game and to play maps via steam workshop. I hope the game will be able to polarise players into some interesting team gamemode and keep them playing by having more tournaments, ladders, team profiles, polished and iconic maps and more unlockable cosmetics. To keep the community alive and players hyped and interessted it's also important to add new content from time to time and to share information about plans and upcoming changes.

Edit: I don't regret the money and time I spend on Reflex, but I fear the game will soon be dead when the devs won't add more and well polished social aspects to the game. There are so many other games with social aspects out there.. Reflex has to compete with other big games about players. For this the game needs working polished features and some fresh new content aswell to set itself apart from QC, QL and CPM.


Edit 2: I like TDM because it is a typical AFPS gamemode with obvious objectives to win the game (1. avoid to get killed 2. stack up with weapons and armors 3. Communicate with your team to help your teammates and continuously maintain Stack 4. Group your team for a teamfight to get carnage each time it spawns) I think CTF works almost the same: Your team will definitely lose when you don't manage to control carnage. Personally I think CTF should not have carnage since it removes focus on the no. 1 objective which should be capturing flags. Maybe CTF could also need a different scoring system. Like 1 CTF match = best of 5 rounds, 1 flag capture = 1 round win, inside a round players and Items keep respawning.. This would prevent snowballing a bit and deny long uneven matches with high score differences - kinda like in the new Quake Champions Duel mode) TDM could be changed like that aswell.. For example :1 TDM match = best of 5 rounds, 1 round = 3 Minutes, no fraglimit, carnage spawns at 01:30 each round and always lasts 30 seconds)

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