Colossus

Widgets/Addons and what is considered cheating?

14 posts in this topic

I watched a stream where somebody when an armor was picked up the announcer said "yellow,red,green" and I was like wow that's kind of dumb you can tell exactly when they pickup an item and know exactly what it is with ease! I have personally changed the sound of my mega expiring to say "30 second warning" to know exactly when mega is going to respawn.

I just found out that you can edit the time stamp file to make it last even longer than normal so you can see what time you picked it up at and not time it for the entire time you are fighting and still look down and be like ok now I can time it.

Obviously if you had an item timer that worked in comp that would be considered cheating but there is so many addons how do you exactly tell what should be allowed and what shouldn't?

To me it seems sort of like a grey area and I wish the developers would do a better job of moderating what is allowed and what isn't because as it stands some of these add-ons can offer a great advantage and you dont know if you should use it or not. 

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There are some questionable addons, but i'm not sure the armour pickup one is dodgy in the slightest. It's no advantage over someone that can recognize the default sound, which isn't exactly hard to do.

Flakx and Pill_ like this

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It can be hard to recognize the default sounds in the middle of a fight with that logic of "its no advantage over somebody who can already do that" well what if you can already time items and they are  some sort of item timer... it shouldn't matter you are already timing the items right?

There are skills you could work on to develop and they could be using some sort of add on to make it much easier. There is one add-on I use that tells you the exact number you have to hurt yourself to pickup each type of armor, that is something people should have to learn but I just installed an add on instead. It seems like the current attitude is if it works in competitive its allowed and I'm not sure if thats healthy for the game as you would need to install a bunch of add ons just to stay competitive as a new player.

Duck and Adam like this

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3 hours ago, hicksy said:

There are some questionable addons, but i'm not sure the armour pickup one is dodgy in the slightest. It's no advantage over someone that can recognize the default sound, which isn't exactly hard to do.

My bone of contention with that particular mod is that it differentiates between the armours. So if you're way over the other side of the map and you hear an armour pickup sound, normally you might not be sure if it was the yellow armour or the red armour. But with that mod it gives you information that the vanilla game otherwise does not give you. That is actually one thing that I would like to be addressed.

As for mega pickup/expire sound, '30 second warning' is genius. Inherent drawback from letting the user change the soundfiles easily. It would be nice if that could be addressed as well whilst still giving us that freedom.

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Rama pointed out there's one that shows the player spawns. I personally think the kerned numbers is very strong when using ion but maybe that's because I'm noob

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I made a video showing the timestamp/sounds in action as it stands they work in comp and seem broken to me but I dont see why I'd turn them off because I dont know that the opponent isnt using something more OP than what I'm using, I think this is very offsetting to new players especially but also experienced alike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWqDsUiOOaI

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On 4/18/2017 at 9:33 PM, Jaguar said:

My bone of contention with that particular mod is that it differentiates between the armours. So if you're way over the other side of the map and you hear an armour pickup sound, normally you might not be sure if it was the yellow armour or the red armour. But with that mod it gives you information that the vanilla game otherwise does not give you. That is actually one thing that I would like to be addressed.

As for mega pickup/expire sound, '30 second warning' is genius. Inherent drawback from letting the user change the soundfiles easily. It would be nice if that could be addressed as well whilst still giving us that freedom.

Each armor type already has a different pickup sounds. That's why you can replace them with even more different sounds. If they used the same file then you couldn't replace them separately.

Jaguar, NicholasWalters and hicksy like this

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6 hours ago, Kered13 said:

Each armor type already has a different pickup sounds. That's why you can replace them with even more different sounds. If they used the same file then you couldn't replace them separately.

Whaaaaaaat?! I've never noticed that!

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1 minute ago, Jaguar said:

Whaaaaaaat?! I've never noticed that!

Svyt told me about it just recently too, there's no custom armor type sounds in Quake, so if you used the comp pack, they all had the same sound. Either gotta revert to the original ones or change the pitch of each.

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2 minutes ago, yakcyll~ said:

Svyt told me about it just recently too, there's no custom armor type sounds in Quake, so if you used the comp pack, they all had the same sound. Either gotta revert to the original ones or change the pitch of each.

I haven't modified/replaced any sounds. So I guess I've just never noticed.

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personally, im not keen on people replacing stock art assets with modified ones. I wouldn't mind too much if the differences were purely cosmetic - but the vast majority of these widgets are about gaining a competitive advantage. the armour sound one might not be that big a change in reality, but it makes information processing easier and requires the player to dedicate less to paying close attention to sounds etc. for instance, the Megahealth expiration sound - if you are listening closely you'll hear it expire in a fight with the default sound, but its relatively easy to miss. with the modified one, its really hard to miss...

this applies to removing the sparks, explosion effects etc aswell imo. the baseline sound and gfx assets reflex provides have more than enough clarity already. i wouldnt mind cosmetic changes that fit the basic design of the stock ones - so that the decision to use them is purely about cosmetics, rather than advantage.

Grybzt, Jaguar, Fastidious and 1 other like this

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7 hours ago, thelawenforcer said:

the vast majority of these widgets are about gaining a competitive advantage

Indeed.  Was talking to a friend recently about this and I didn't realize it had gotten this bad.  I don't even want to touch the game at this point.  There is a big difference between customization and outright cheats. For those who don't know their Quake history it used to be common place back in the day to cheat with sounds replacing them in .pak files with timer sounds.  Players shouldn't need to spend hours tweaking their setups to be competitive.

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I use visual clarity and remove sparks. I also remove race trails. Why? They are annoying and I don't want them (If i was a dev I probably would remove them). If I consider it cheating? A little. But if this was in quake3 this would just be a simple cvar. like cg_noprojectiletrail. But I hope we don't get so many settings for reflex so the games stays more consistent from player to player. 

Sounds is default.

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Devs should have made Reflex watertight. Lua scripting in theory is nice, but if you allow scripting in a competitive environment then obviously there are going to be players taking advantage of it. Really it does more harm than good. And it wouldn't hurt the 'open source creativity blabla' by locking down lua, because the biggest input of creativity comes from mapping imo (audio effects and sparks (non lua) should be the exception here, as everyone has access to that through the workshop and armor/mega sounds are now locked to 3 seconds). What's happening right now is that there are a few lua scripts floating around on Discord every once in a while, so basically you're being forced to 'keep up' with the meta. I don't think that's desirable. Imagine you're going on a vacation and in the meantime some dude has worked on yet another lua script that gives some microadvantage, if you add up all these things, the advantages become bigger and bigger. NOT TO MENTION the widgets that are being coded privately and not shared amongst the community.

Some examples of widgets that are floating around on Discord/other places besides workshop:

spawnplates widget (seeing spawnlocations on map during match)
armor/mega timing widget (timing all of your GA/YA/RA/Mega pickups during competitive match)
nameplates widget (could potentially be advantageous in team/CA matches because it shows hp/armor of teammates and where they are)

It's really so simple to use LUA to your advantage. If you take the Kyto timestamp widget for instance, and you just add +25 seconds, you effectively designed a ghetto timer.

Or, you bind a lua script to a key and you let it countdown 25 seconds from the moment you heard the enemy RA pickup. (these are just some examples).

tl;dr, even if players don't have malicious intentions with lua, they are basically being forced to keep up with the meta or even use shady widgets to their advantage, because if they don't, then certainly other players will.

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