Colossus

Widgets/Addons and what is considered cheating?

33 posts in this topic

I watched a stream where somebody when an armor was picked up the announcer said "yellow,red,green" and I was like wow that's kind of dumb you can tell exactly when they pickup an item and know exactly what it is with ease! I have personally changed the sound of my mega expiring to say "30 second warning" to know exactly when mega is going to respawn.

I just found out that you can edit the time stamp file to make it last even longer than normal so you can see what time you picked it up at and not time it for the entire time you are fighting and still look down and be like ok now I can time it.

Obviously if you had an item timer that worked in comp that would be considered cheating but there is so many addons how do you exactly tell what should be allowed and what shouldn't?

To me it seems sort of like a grey area and I wish the developers would do a better job of moderating what is allowed and what isn't because as it stands some of these add-ons can offer a great advantage and you dont know if you should use it or not. 

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There are some questionable addons, but i'm not sure the armour pickup one is dodgy in the slightest. It's no advantage over someone that can recognize the default sound, which isn't exactly hard to do.

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It can be hard to recognize the default sounds in the middle of a fight with that logic of "its no advantage over somebody who can already do that" well what if you can already time items and they are  some sort of item timer... it shouldn't matter you are already timing the items right?

There are skills you could work on to develop and they could be using some sort of add on to make it much easier. There is one add-on I use that tells you the exact number you have to hurt yourself to pickup each type of armor, that is something people should have to learn but I just installed an add on instead. It seems like the current attitude is if it works in competitive its allowed and I'm not sure if thats healthy for the game as you would need to install a bunch of add ons just to stay competitive as a new player.

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3 hours ago, hicksy said:

There are some questionable addons, but i'm not sure the armour pickup one is dodgy in the slightest. It's no advantage over someone that can recognize the default sound, which isn't exactly hard to do.

My bone of contention with that particular mod is that it differentiates between the armours. So if you're way over the other side of the map and you hear an armour pickup sound, normally you might not be sure if it was the yellow armour or the red armour. But with that mod it gives you information that the vanilla game otherwise does not give you. That is actually one thing that I would like to be addressed.

As for mega pickup/expire sound, '30 second warning' is genius. Inherent drawback from letting the user change the soundfiles easily. It would be nice if that could be addressed as well whilst still giving us that freedom.

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Rama pointed out there's one that shows the player spawns. I personally think the kerned numbers is very strong when using ion but maybe that's because I'm noob

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I made a video showing the timestamp/sounds in action as it stands they work in comp and seem broken to me but I dont see why I'd turn them off because I dont know that the opponent isnt using something more OP than what I'm using, I think this is very offsetting to new players especially but also experienced alike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWqDsUiOOaI

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On 4/18/2017 at 9:33 PM, Jaguar said:

My bone of contention with that particular mod is that it differentiates between the armours. So if you're way over the other side of the map and you hear an armour pickup sound, normally you might not be sure if it was the yellow armour or the red armour. But with that mod it gives you information that the vanilla game otherwise does not give you. That is actually one thing that I would like to be addressed.

As for mega pickup/expire sound, '30 second warning' is genius. Inherent drawback from letting the user change the soundfiles easily. It would be nice if that could be addressed as well whilst still giving us that freedom.

Each armor type already has a different pickup sounds. That's why you can replace them with even more different sounds. If they used the same file then you couldn't replace them separately.

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6 hours ago, Kered13 said:

Each armor type already has a different pickup sounds. That's why you can replace them with even more different sounds. If they used the same file then you couldn't replace them separately.

Whaaaaaaat?! I've never noticed that!

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1 minute ago, Jaguar said:

Whaaaaaaat?! I've never noticed that!

Svyt told me about it just recently too, there's no custom armor type sounds in Quake, so if you used the comp pack, they all had the same sound. Either gotta revert to the original ones or change the pitch of each.

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2 minutes ago, yakcyll~ said:

Svyt told me about it just recently too, there's no custom armor type sounds in Quake, so if you used the comp pack, they all had the same sound. Either gotta revert to the original ones or change the pitch of each.

I haven't modified/replaced any sounds. So I guess I've just never noticed.

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personally, im not keen on people replacing stock art assets with modified ones. I wouldn't mind too much if the differences were purely cosmetic - but the vast majority of these widgets are about gaining a competitive advantage. the armour sound one might not be that big a change in reality, but it makes information processing easier and requires the player to dedicate less to paying close attention to sounds etc. for instance, the Megahealth expiration sound - if you are listening closely you'll hear it expire in a fight with the default sound, but its relatively easy to miss. with the modified one, its really hard to miss...

this applies to removing the sparks, explosion effects etc aswell imo. the baseline sound and gfx assets reflex provides have more than enough clarity already. i wouldnt mind cosmetic changes that fit the basic design of the stock ones - so that the decision to use them is purely about cosmetics, rather than advantage.

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7 hours ago, thelawenforcer said:

the vast majority of these widgets are about gaining a competitive advantage

Indeed.  Was talking to a friend recently about this and I didn't realize it had gotten this bad.  I don't even want to touch the game at this point.  There is a big difference between customization and outright cheats. For those who don't know their Quake history it used to be common place back in the day to cheat with sounds replacing them in .pak files with timer sounds.  Players shouldn't need to spend hours tweaking their setups to be competitive.

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I use visual clarity and remove sparks. I also remove race trails. Why? They are annoying and I don't want them (If i was a dev I probably would remove them). If I consider it cheating? A little. But if this was in quake3 this would just be a simple cvar. like cg_noprojectiletrail. But I hope we don't get so many settings for reflex so the games stays more consistent from player to player. 

Sounds is default.

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Devs should have made Reflex watertight. Lua scripting in theory is nice, but if you allow scripting in a competitive environment then obviously there are going to be players taking advantage of it. Really it does more harm than good. And it wouldn't hurt the 'open source creativity blabla' by locking down lua, because the biggest input of creativity comes from mapping imo (audio effects and sparks (non lua) should be the exception here, as everyone has access to that through the workshop and armor/mega sounds are now locked to 3 seconds). What's happening right now is that there are a few lua scripts floating around on Discord every once in a while, so basically you're being forced to 'keep up' with the meta. I don't think that's desirable. Imagine you're going on a vacation and in the meantime some dude has worked on yet another lua script that gives some microadvantage, if you add up all these things, the advantages become bigger and bigger. NOT TO MENTION the widgets that are being coded privately and not shared amongst the community.

Some examples of widgets that are floating around on Discord/other places besides workshop:

spawnplates widget (seeing spawnlocations on map during match)
armor/mega timing widget (timing all of your GA/YA/RA/Mega pickups during competitive match)
nameplates widget (could potentially be advantageous in team/CA matches because it shows hp/armor of teammates and where they are)

It's really so simple to use LUA to your advantage. If you take the Kyto timestamp widget for instance, and you just add +25 seconds, you effectively designed a ghetto timer.

Or, you bind a lua script to a key and you let it countdown 25 seconds from the moment you heard the enemy RA pickup. (these are just some examples).

tl;dr, even if players don't have malicious intentions with lua, they are basically being forced to keep up with the meta or even use shady widgets to their advantage, because if they don't, then certainly other players will.

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Posted (edited)

TV6q4kA.gif

Can't we just enable timers for everyone at this point? SCIENCE HAS GONE TOO FAR

Edited by Padawan
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Shooter said in discord last night that he likes the idea of just denying the ability to draw in the 3D world via the Lua engine. However this would clash with the nameplates widget, as that is exactly what it does. So I'm hoping for official nameplates widget so that can be banned :D I do feel like the purpose of the competitive ruleset is to deny timers, so anything that breaks that should be addressed. It should all be about the player's sense of timing.

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9 hours ago, Jaguar said:

Shooter said in discord last night that he likes the idea of just denying the ability to draw in the 3D world via the Lua engine. However this would clash with the nameplates widget, as that is exactly what it does. So I'm hoping for official nameplates widget so that can be banned :D I do feel like the purpose of the competitive ruleset is to deny timers, so anything that breaks that should be addressed. It should all be about the player's sense of timing.

people will just throw together an autohotkey script in 10 minutes and use that instead. any arena fps that gains new players is going to face this problem because people do not want to learn to time. if you want people to not cheat with timers you might as well do a redesign of duel mode in which armor/powerup timing is more intuitive

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, hArD_a$$_nIqQa said:

people will just throw together an autohotkey script in 10 minutes and use that instead. any arena fps that gains new players is going to face this problem because people do not want to learn to time. if you want people to not cheat with timers you might as well do a redesign of duel mode in which armor/powerup timing is more intuitive

@hArD_a$$_nIqQa I once came up with this (imo pretty neat) solution: Instead of watching the clock to time items accurately, imagine you could see the item 'build up'. Try to visualize a transparant bucket, slowly filling up with water so you can see when it's full (and about to spawn). This would make (simple) maths during gameplay redundant, since you can visualize the item timings. Also it would impose a risk to go and peek around the corner to get info on when the armor is filled up, so it can be punishable too.

Nobody ever considered it though :(

edit: other method: http://www.esreality.com/post/2782833/re-armor-idea

Edited by Padawan
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9 hours ago, Padawan said:

@hArD_a$$_nIqQa I once came up with this (imo pretty neat) solution: Instead of watching the clock to time items accurately, imagine you could see the item 'build up'. Try to visualize a transparant bucket, slowly filling up with water so you can see when it's full (and about to spawn). This would make (simple) maths during gameplay redundant, since you can visualize the item timings. Also it would impose a risk to go and peek around the corner to get info on when the armor is filled up, so it can be punishable too.

Nobody ever considered it though :(

edit: other method: http://www.esreality.com/post/2782833/re-armor-idea

the problem with your idea is that you can still just throw together an ahk script in 10 minutes and have exact times. people do not want to time. we all know that, objectively, timing items in arena fps games is a skill but the fact of the matter is that timing items does not feel intuitive for new players and moreover, it feels mundane because you're "just" adding/subtracting 25 and trying to remember the result.

i don't think there's a way make people think otherwise because they're right; timing items is (superficially) boring. if you showed a bunch of newbies some high level duels they would likely be more impressed with the movement/fighting than item control. i think this issue is made even worse by damage mitigation from armor carrying over to self-damage. in cpm armor let you absorb 50% of self-damage regardless of what tier armor you had but in reflex that is not the case. this has lead to the prevalence of much more "robotic" playstyles in duel.

tldr new players will never find timing items fun or intuitive and timing items doesn't feel like a skill that you're cheating yourself out of if you use an illegal timer in contrast to using things like aimbots/wallhacks

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10 hours ago, hArD_a$$_nIqQa said:

the problem with your idea is that you can still just throw together an ahk script in 10 minutes and have exact times. people do not want to time. we all know that, objectively, timing items in arena fps games is a skill but the fact of the matter is that timing items does not feel intuitive for new players and moreover, it feels mundane because you're "just" adding/subtracting 25 and trying to remember the result.

True, i guess this way would work so much better in CPM, where global sounds didn't exist (you could time your own pickups ofcourse, but it was harder to keep track of enemy pickups so an AHK script wouldn't work in this case). CPM somehow was an excellent tradeoff between the combat/damage game and picking up armors. With the lack of global sounds, not many players would time an item to the very second precisely which shifted the gameplay more around dealing damage/punishing positioning and not so much the pacman style gameplay we see now in Reflex

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18 hours ago, hArD_a$$_nIqQa said:

the problem with your idea is that you can still just throw together an ahk script in 10 minutes and have exact times. people do not want to time. we all know that, objectively, timing items in arena fps games is a skill but the fact of the matter is that timing items does not feel intuitive for new players and moreover, it feels mundane because you're "just" adding/subtracting 25 and trying to remember the result.

i don't think there's a way make people think otherwise because they're right; timing items is (superficially) boring. if you showed a bunch of newbies some high level duels they would likely be more impressed with the movement/fighting than item control. i think this issue is made even worse by damage mitigation from armor carrying over to self-damage. in cpm armor let you absorb 50% of self-damage regardless of what tier armor you had but in reflex that is not the case. this has lead to the prevalence of much more "robotic" playstyles in duel.

tldr new players will never find timing items fun or intuitive and timing items doesn't feel like a skill that you're cheating yourself out of if you use an illegal timer in contrast to using things like aimbots/wallhacks

Timing isn't boring. It adds another layer of strategy when you create/break cycles. Sure it sucks for new players but it's a skill you build on. 

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36 minutes ago, ecall said:

Timing isn't boring. It adds another layer of strategy when you create/break cycles. Sure it sucks for new players but it's a skill you build on. 

i'm not sure if you only skimmed my post or what but i, very intentionally, mentioned that i was speaking specifically about the perception that new players/outsiders have of timing items and even made sure to specify, when i mentioned that they're right about timing being "boring", that it's only in a superficial sense. i think you should reread my post since i tried very hard to make it as clear as possible.

my stating that the perception of "timing cheating" is different than that of aimbots/wallhacks is not disputable. widgets, sound replacements, etc that help players time items are far more prevalent than "conventional" forms of cheating. this isn't exclusive to reflex either. for example, here's a quake live ahk timer: https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=19537

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38 minutes ago, hArD_a$$_nIqQa said:

i'm not sure if you only skimmed my post or what but i, very intentionally, mentioned that i was speaking specifically about the perception that new players/outsiders have of timing items and even made sure to specify, when i mentioned that they're right about timing being "boring", that it's only in a superficial sense. i think you should reread my post since i tried very hard to make it as clear as possible.

my stating that the perception of "timing cheating" is different than that of aimbots/wallhacks is not disputable. widgets, sound replacements, etc that help players time items are far more prevalent than "conventional" forms of cheating. this isn't exclusive to reflex either. for example, here's a quake live ahk timer: https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=19537

Ahhh gotcha yeah I didn't read it close enough! I agree.

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An individuals perception on what is considered too broken is not the issue, what the problem is that the developers (to my knowledge) have not made a statement on what is allowed and what isn't. Until the devs say whats legal/illegal and decide to crackdown on the widget system they implemented I advise every single person to use all of the shady add ons they can find, because best believe me other people are using anything they can get their hands on.

I've told my friend about all the sounds I modified/add-ons I installed to give myself an advantage and it made them lose interest in the game and I'm sure if other players were aware itd be a huge turn off, because even to me its a HUGE turn off, I have such an advantage because I can time items easily and can hear exactly where they spawn, know right when they pick up any item on the map and to my knowledge its accepted by the community and the developers, its ok to cheat in this game essentially. You take the advantage of already being an arena shooter player and you add it on to that and a new player would never get a single kill.

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