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Grybzt

Base problems of team modes

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Hi,

We all love team modes (TDM and CTF) but they never took gravity in reflex. I just want to share my 2 scents why I think Reflex is not ready for team modes boom. And also invoke more discussions and possible solutions. There has been a lot of discussions and a lot of suggestion for features and etc. But I think issues start to pop up at the base level.

Issues:

  1. Servers can't handle larger amount of players. 

Currently servers are struggling and crashing when there are more than 10 people in the server and this is really bummer for team modes. 
And here is why we need more than 10 playable slots:
For competitive play to exist, you need casual player base to back it up.
4v4 is good for competitive play, but for casual or public play teams have to larger. Because in public play, people are jumping in and leaving constantly. And when 1 person leaves in 4v4, teams balance is completely ruined and there is no break or wait for other people to hop in. But in case of 7v8 it's not that terrible, it's still remains playable and enjoyable.
This issue is also is very hard fix because networking bugs are incredibly tricky to diagnose and fix.

  1. Reflex can't handle large maps.

for 8v8 to be fun, it needs big maps, but sadly currently engine can't really deliver that. Even smaller "big" maps like Monolith are performing poorly. Counter argument might be "Have better PCs", while it's legit, but maps performance should be consistent. And fixing this is incredibly hard. Engine is already settled in, not only it's hard to improve performance, engine updates will possible create new issues.

Also low player base, I don't really want to dive into this much, since it's discussed enough.

So in the end, I don't think Reflex is ready for classical CTF that we're used to. Maybe Reflex should adopt some kind of hybrid to allow casual play with lower players count and smaller maps. Because these mentioned issues are tricky to fix and won't even guarantee that CTF will all of the sudden take speed.

What's your thoughts?
<3

Kyto, NicholasWalters and LKO-,- like this

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I think having proper mechanics for TDM and CTF would be a start (a dedicated menu for team bindings in the options, high ammo caps, long respawn time for weapons, etc...).

I don't think that large amount of players per game is a solution, 5v5 is the most these gamemodes can handle.

 

NicholasWalters and Fastidious like this

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tdm and ctf are never going to be interesting again. no amount of features will change that. aside from there being lots of fundamental issues with the gametypes themselves that affect how enjoyable they are to play, there are far more interesting alternatives in other games. the only way to get teammodes to get traction in reflex would be to offer something interesting and more suited to teamplay etc. if reflex is the only place you can play this awesome teamgame, then people will ( i hope xD); tdm and ctf on the other hand can be played in countless other games (not that anyone does, the modes are dead pretty much everywhere).

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Personally I don't know any modern schooter game where I can easily find competetive TDM or CTF games through matchmaking. Sure I can play TDM in Call if Duty or Battlefield but these games are completely casual. I'd like to play TDM in Reflex or Unreal Tournament 4. But the communities of these games always try to find excuses to not play or further polish these gamemodes.

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Why not just bomb defusal mode, we already have dust2, aztec, cache ;)

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Wasn't there a Quakeworld's mod called Quakeball where you had to grab a flag (and there was only one on the map) and hold it as long as you can, and the team with the most time held at the end of the game won ?

It included every others mechanics of TDM (power-ups, armors, health, weapons, ammo control) and CTF (differents roles and a defined objective) but it was more easy to follow as a spectator and was definetely more Quake-y ?

Plus, it definitely makes a home for the stake launcher and it's teamplay use. :)

Kyto, Grybzt and Fastidious like this

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I didn't know there were so many technical issues with larger player numbers on a server.  If that is the case then maybe team modes aren't even worth working on.  That said I don't think they really worked on team modes much.  They gave interviews saying how important it was but team lock was never a feature for about 2 years.  Clearly not an important part of the game.

One important distinction to make regarding team modes might be to admit duel and team modes require different design.  The problem with basically everything AFPS lately is they are designed around duel, then team modes fail horribly and everyone is like "well it's an AFPS we knew no one would play it."  Why not actually design gameplay around teamplay modes for once?  Hell most AFPS can't even recognize team modes need higher ammo caps which is incredibly basic.  Sure 25 max rockets or whatever might work in duel but it is shit in team modes where you might have 3-5+ enemies on a team.  More targets need more ammo.

The reason QW TDM was magic was because the teamplay was good and revolved around self-sacrifice which was very unique.  There's a big difference between basic coordination tactical play (deathball, OW ult combos, etc) and making plays that might hurt your own direct power but indirectly help you by making the team stronger.  When you do an aggressive attack in QW TDM, secure a kill which drops a strong weapon pack for a team mate it might be very risky.  After the fight you then have to sit around and guard it for a team mate to take (even riskier!).  The selfish play would be to take the pack (more ammo!) and run.  You're more likely to live but your team will be weaker off and if you need help later your team mate won't have a good weapon.  Those are the decisions and unique aspects which make teamplay magic work yet it only happens if there are sharp power differences (strong QW RL, RA, quad every minute, etc) and scarcity (hard to get ammo, 30s weapon respawns).  No one would save a weapon in QC because everything respawns in 5s.

If you look at PUBG (which is insanely popular, shockingly popular) at it's core it's one life deathmatch.  Yet it shares many AFPS qualities.  Items are tied to map spawns and while random certain areas are much more likely to spawn certain things.  In PUBG team modes players make tough quick decisions and need to do that sacrifice play which might be very risky for themselves but helps their team.  It's very random (item spawns, circle, etc) which makes more crazy shit happen but also means it is a less serious competitive game.  Yet at this point I think most AFPS players would be more than willing to trade a little casualness if it guaranteed an actual player base worth a damn.  I also strongly believe no AFPS is going to have strong player base without a good solid team mode (and no CA isn't it because it's too simple).  Maybe someday an AFPS will actually give team modes the effort they require.

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On 26/07/2017 at 2:51 PM, Fastidious said:

Stuff

Moreover, weapons had more pronounced tactical elements in QW TDM.

You could efficiently cover entries with the RL and the discharge mechanic. You could easily kill multiples enemies with the RL insane splash damage and easily kill enemy weapons by ambushing and pinning them to the ceiling with the LG.

Not to mention traps and shortcuts that could be activated by one of your teammate to save time/ambush enemies and stairs that slew you down, hence making a defendable position.

QC tried to be innovative by adding abilities, which is good on paper, but they added gimmicky/non-tactical abilities and deleted all the others aspects that made team gamemodes cool.

So, Reflex doesn't have, for now, the abilities to sound "innovative" nor the tactical elements that would wreck duels but make TDM/CTF good.

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7 hours ago, Zvarri said:

[...]

So, Reflex doesn't have, for now, the abilities to sound "innovative" nor the tactical elements that would wreck duels but make TDM/CTF good.

QW was the best in all ways. Duel and Teamplay. Early Reflex (with smaller playermodels, more direct aircontrol and bigger rocketsplash/knockback) was the ideal hybrid between CPM and QW. But people played too much QL and nobody seems to like QW (balance) anymore... So I guess Turbopixel will find a different way to make team based modes more attractive or atleast find a way to make it possible to play them via MM.

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1 hour ago, HaraldQuake said:

QW was the best in all ways. Duel and Teamplay. Early Reflex (with smaller playermodels, more direct aircontrol and bigger rocketsplash/knockback) was the ideal hybrid between CPM and QW. But people played too much QL and nobody seems to like QW (balance) anymore... So I guess Turbopixel will find a different way to make team based modes more attractive or atleast find a way to make it possible to play them via MM.

Why is QW best for duel than Reflex ? I get it in teamplay but not in duels.

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On 28.7.2017 at 0:34 AM, Zvarri said:

Why is QW best for duel than Reflex ? I get it in teamplay but not in duels.

Actually I don't really want to discuss this as it's properly just a matter of taste and opinions (because this is a game with it's own rules which shouldn't be compared to real life). Though I just prefer QW ( https://youtu.be/pkysX175pC0?t=4m35s ) and early Reflex ( https://youtu.be/OX_VDzJxOE4?t=24m30s) because it's more fun to be able to have somewhat "realistic" or reasonable splash on rockets (that enables area-denial and crowd control) and also knockback that makes it possible to interrupt the enemies movement and hit multiple midairs after eachother. 

I know hitscan fans don't like it but for me this is how a quake-like should play (high knockback, splash and dmg on rockets and high knockback on shaft - personally I don't mind if shaft is medium-high dps because it's knockback and usability alone make it super powerful ).

What else I prefer over current Reflex is the old gravity because I think it feels more natural and more consistent to have gravity in proportion to general movement speed --> if there is low inertia at grounded movements then there should also be low inertia while in air (you move too fast/accelerate to too quickly using A or D strafe on ground compared to how fast your playermodel falls down while in air. In current Reflex it always feels like slightly floating in midair while in QW / old Reflex it just felt like movementspeeds are somewhat reasonable (besides special mechanics like bhop and aircontrol) but the whole timescale is higher than in real life.) This is extremely noticable when trying to walk down stairs. It's mostly impossible to move them down silently because you almost always get dropsounds (doesn't happen in QW).

I feel like rocket- and grenadelaunchers should be extremely powerful (maybe make them share ammo like in QW and generally make ammo more rare) and armors / hitscan weapons should mainly be bonus.

Edit: All in all I think it's important to have a game which has consistent gameplay across all modes (same (self-)damage, knockback, ammolimits, aircontrol, speed etc.). I think duel also works with strong rockets and gl and team modes would profit from them aswell. So besides it being more fun I think it would improve the whole game by making it a more unique and consistent experience.

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