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A. Benz

Top (max) 5 things, that you dislike the most about Reflex (05.01.2015)

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Instead, the forum has a function that requires people to explain why they dislike someones ideas, and why their other ideas are better instead of just attaching a poll to every comment and allowing people to take a stance without justifying it or explaining what should happen instead.

 

iirc the reason for outlines instead of brightskins was already explained a while ago.

 

EDIT: okay I just realized i didn't reply to the post requesting brightskins and instead just made a normal post.

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What the hell is up with the demand for fullbright models. I'm fucking colorblind and i have no problems seeing enemy models. Just force the enemy color to yellow and you will be fine.

I wouldn't mind NOT having fullbright models if the player models wouldn't be so damn dark inside the outlines. Occasionally it's hard to tell which side of the outline is a miss and which side is a hit, especially when shooting at somebody through narrow cracks eg. shooting through grenade window from mega hp in aerowalk. Since fullbright is not going to happen, due to skin DLCs and such, the models could at the least optionally ignore light/shadowmaps and appear in bright colours. Not all of us have your holy gamer eyes.

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Ok, to all the guys saying spawn killing is part of the game bla bla bla.

 

I just played a duel on BDM3 against Aliasedfrog.

 

I was 4 to 0 in lead. None of these 4 frags was a spawn kill. None.

 

He kills me -> gets 2 free spawn frags cuz i spawn right in his face/close to him. 4-3. Later in the game he spawn kills me again. Result was 10-4. It's ok i lost..i'm a noob. How again is this lucky, random shit any "competitive"? Tell me? What if i was the guy being lucky and he wouldn't have gotten a single spawn kill? 7-7 draw? Cuz of...some random luck? Really?

 

And those weren't some "spawn twice at the same spawn" shit spawns. Or "spawn were you died" spawns. Just random spawns. Map so fucking small, game so fucking fast. Doesn't matter, just need some "luck" to NOT spawn in enemies face. Not to mention that after 1 fight i actually won and got away very low life he just spawns so close the me that 1 shot from the burst gun killed me. So...kill for kill trade, because of..luck.

 

"competitive". rant over.

 

(cpma players complain about CS being too random, but this shit is apparently "part of the game" ...)

 

So..can some EXPERIENCED player explain how spawn killing is any competitive?

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Ok, to all the guys saying spawn killing is part of the game bla bla bla.

 

I just played a duel on BDM3 against Aliasedfrog.

 

I was 4 to 0 in lead. None of these 4 frags was a spawn kill. None.

 

He kills me -> gets 2 free spawn frags cuz i spawn right in his face/close to him. 4-3. Later in the game he spawn kills me again. Result was 10-4. It's ok i lost..i'm a noob. How again is this lucky, random shit any "competitive"? Tell me? What if i was the guy being lucky and he wouldn't have gotten a single spawn kill? 7-7 draw? Cuz of...some random luck? Really?

 

And those weren't some "spawn twice at the same spawn" shit spawns. Or "spawn were you died" spawns. Just random spawns. Map so fucking small, game so fucking fast. Doesn't matter, just need some "luck" to NOT spawn in enemies face.

 

"competitive". rant over.

 

(cpma players complain about CS being too random, but this shit is apparently "part of the game" ...)

 

So..can some EXPERIENCED player explain how spawn killing is any competitive?

What spawn system would you LIKE to see? Random spawn? Random spawn ignoring the closest 50%? Random spawn ignoring the last one? 

 

Because no matter what spawn system is used, there's gonna be some way to exploit it such that people will die on spawning. It's a part of the game. The more restrictions, the more likely the setup works.

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What spawn system would you LIKE to see? Random spawn? Random spawn ignoring the closest 50%? Random spawn ignoring the last one? 

 

Because no matter what spawn system is used, there's gonna be some way to exploit it such that people will die on spawning. It's a part of the game. The more restrictions, the more likely the setup works.

 

I'd simply like a system, where you don't spawn in the line of sight of your enemy. Ofc that leads to enemies being able to force spawns, f.e. you at the other side of mega.

 

Here's the deal: you might spawn far away, because the enemy forced you so, BUT you can AT LEAST sneak your way back in.... ++++++++ the enemy gets an advantage over you. But it's not as big as just a free spawn kill. I remember someone in here saying: how are you supposed to get back into the game, without spawnkilling? How? Wait...you kill someone -> he has:

 

- no items

- no armor

 

If you can force spawns:

 

- you can get the items you want/need ....f.e. in case you barely survived the fight

 

which leads to -> you have an advantage over your enemy -> you can kill him again ...but that fight WON'T be just a FREE KILL ..but an actual kill you work for.

 

Or i'm just missing some massive competitive point of spawn killing right here..... which i hope someone COULD explain then.

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I'd simply like a system, where you don't spawn in the line of sight of your enemy. Ofc that leads to enemies being able to force spawns, f.e. you at the other side of mega.

 

Here's the deal: you might spawn far away, because the enemy forced you so, BUT you can AT LEAST sneak your way back in.... ++++++++ the enemy gets an advantage over you. But it's not as big as just a free spawn kill. I remember someone in here saying: how are you supposed to get back into the game, without spawnkilling? How? Wait...you kill someone -> he has:

 

- no items

- no armor

 

If you can force spawns:

 

- you can get the items you want/need ....f.e. in case you barely survived the fight

 

which leads to -> you have an advantage over your enemy -> you can kill him again ...but that fight WON'T be just a FREE KILL ..but an actual kill you work for.

 

Or i'm just missing some massive competitive point of spawn killing right here..... which i hope someone COULD explain then.

 

I agree. The QL spawn system does this and while its not perfect it works most of the time, and its far more ideal than random spawns. If reflex used that spawn model it would be for the best I think.

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I agree. The QL spawn system does this and while its not perfect it works most of the time, and its far more ideal than random spawns. If reflex used that spawn model it would be for the best I think.

QL ignores the farthest half of spawns, leaving at least 4.

There is nothing about line of sight.

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So..can some EXPERIENCED player explain how spawn killing is any competitive?

It's like any aspect of the game, it can be done in a skilled fashion to maximize score.  There are various locations on a map where you can kill someone and can expect better chances at spawn killing due to line of sight, firing angles, sound cues, travel distance or other factors.  Likewise there are places on a map where if you die it won't be too bad for you or if die there it's far enough away from items that you can stock up fast or even be at an advantage.  Spawn frags are also part of level control.  This will sound like a joke but if you don't die you can't get spawn fragged.  One of the better ways to play is defensively and try to never die.  There are certainly times when sacrifice or aggressive play is required but for most players just minimizing their deaths or not dying will be a great way to play.  Most new players are way too aggressive and don't realize how many frags they are basically giving away for free.  A good player can manage to escape some pretty unlucky spawns and not die.

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Ok, to all the guys saying spawn killing is part of the game bla bla bla.

I just played a duel on BDM3 against Aliasedfrog.

I was 4 to 0 in lead. None of these 4 frags was a spawn kill. None.

He kills me -> gets 2 free spawn frags cuz i spawn right in his face/close to him. 4-3. Later in the game he spawn kills me again. Result was 10-4. It's ok i lost..i'm a noob. How again is this lucky, random shit any "competitive"? Tell me? What if i was the guy being lucky and he wouldn't have gotten a single spawn kill? 7-7 draw? Cuz of...some random luck? Really?

And those weren't some "spawn twice at the same spawn" shit spawns. Or "spawn were you died" spawns. Just random spawns. Map so fucking small, game so fucking fast. Doesn't matter, just need some "luck" to NOT spawn in enemies face. Not to mention that after 1 fight i actually won and got away very low life he just spawns so close the me that 1 shot from the burst gun killed me. So...kill for kill trade, because of..luck.

"competitive". rant over.

(cpma players complain about CS being too random, but this shit is apparently "part of the game" ...)

So..can some EXPERIENCED player explain how spawn killing is any competitive?

It's competitive when it's not utterly random like in reflex atm. In cpma you can predict spawns and that's how you can chainkill someone, it's not luck there.

I don't like the current spawn system, however not because of spawnfrags but because of crap like winning the fight at RA on cpm22 and then still losing RA because the opponent gets a random spawn there (which happens quite often with only 6 spawns on the map) or getting insta bubble blasted in the back after winning a fight which is quite devastating considering the damage output that weapon can have in cqb. I actually think the current spawnsystem favors the spawning player.

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I don't like the odds being in favor for pre-firing at spawn points and getting reliable spawn frags like that. In CPMA it was rare, but possible to get multiple frags from same forced spawn point. In aerowalk there was multiple ways to get spawn kills even when the spawn point was not directly in your line of sight, some spawn kills happens without pre-firing after the fact and by predicting where the player runs off from spawn. I like the random mechanic more because it's about how you capitalize on the occasional good- or bad luck spawns, there's more variation to spawn kills and the freshly died can also get sometimes lucky. Eliminating minor luck factors based on "because luck is not competitive or deserved" is silly, because luck is always present. One player always gets the stronger/preferred spawn at the start of each game, implementing mechanics to balance initial spawns would not only be super complicated, but also very silly and waste of time.

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Ok, thanks for the answers so far:

 

so how does the spawn system in CPMA work? From what seekax writes you don't spawn close to the enemy in CPMA as well?

 

 

 

 I like the random mechanic more because it's about how you capitalize on the occasional good- or bad luck spawns, there's more variation to spawn kills and the freshly died can also get sometimes lucky. Eliminating minor luck factors..

 

Ok, how is that a MINOR luck factor if player A gets X free frags and player B gets Y free frags?

 

In my example from the duel with aliasedfrog ..... how is that a MINOR luck factor, for a competitive game? He gets 4 (!!) lucky spawns, while i get 0. How exactly is that minor?

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Eliminating minor luck factors based on "because luck is not competitive or deserved" is silly, because luck is always present. One player always gets the stronger/preferred spawn at the start of each game, implementing mechanics to balance initial spawns would not only be super complicated, but also very silly and waste of time.

 

I strongly disagree. It shouldn't be super complicated to base initial spawn based on say, one round of arena instagib (first person to kill gets to pick his spawn, the other gets to choose his right after). Then just make later spawns based on SOMETHING that is not a secret behind the scenes algorithm and TA DA this competitive game is now luck free while possibly altered so little it'd practically provide the same experience.

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I strongly disagree. It shouldn't be super complicated to base initial spawn based on say, one round of arena instagib (first person to kill gets to pick his spawn, the other gets to choose his right after). Then just make later spawns based on SOMETHING that is not a secret behind the scenes algorithm and TA DA this competitive game is now luck free while possibly altered so little it'd practically provide the same experience.

 

I'm not entirely convinced : if the algorithm is simple enough to be done by a human being, it means you can predict where your oponent will respawn, so on a small enough map you can indefinitely spawnrape your opponent once you've fragged him once.

 

On the other hand, if the algorithm is too complex for a human being to replicate (pseudo random), it does introduce a bit of luck, but it also forces you to be smarter.

For example if you know your opponent can spawn in three different places you could either take a blind guess, secure the on which would give him the greater advantage, or use audio cues to determine where he spawned, which sounds more interesting to me than "I killed at this location / while I had x health left / when the timer was at x seconds so it means he'll spawn there, let's go kill him".

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I'm not entirely convinced : if the algorithm is simple enough to be done by a human being, it means you can predict where your oponent will respawn, so on a small enough map you can indefinitely spawnrape your opponent once you've fragged him once.

 

On the other hand, if the algorithm is too complex for a human being to replicate (pseudo random), it does introduce a bit of luck, but it also forces you to be smarter.

For example if you know your opponent can spawn in three different places you could either take a blind guess, secure the on which would give him the greater advantage, or use audio cues to determine where he spawned, which sounds more interesting to me than "I killed at this location / while I had x health left / when the timer was at x seconds so it means he'll spawn there, let's go kill him".

 

Totally agree. Your second example is how it works in QL? Isn't it. 

 

BDM3 f.e ..that map is SO small and SO fast, i doubt you could prevent spawn killing at all on this map.

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Since fullbright is not going to happen, due to skin DLCs and such, the models could at the least optionally ignore light/shadowmaps and appear in bright colours. Not all of us have your holy gamer eyes.

 

This is going to make me sound like a smartass, but if the character models were to ignore light/shadowmaps, wouldn't that technically make them fullbright? Not meaning to imply it's a bad idea, just wondering.

Also, it would be helpful if players could adjust the opacity and thickness of the outlines within reasonable amounts(not letting outlines exceed the size of the hitbox.)

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So, confirmation from newborn regarding the spawn system:

 

you won't get spawned on closest spawn to enemy + higher chance of farther away spawn. That will pretty much eliminate those current random luck spawn kills. That's all i wanted :).

 

newborn for president.

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you won't get spawned on closest spawn to enemy + higher chance of farther away spawn. That will pretty much eliminate those current random luck spawn kills. That's all i wanted :).

Enjoy never getting the good spawns because the opponent forces you out from there to the crappier ones where it's easier to frag you. The luck can now only favor the spawn killer. GG, I guess we're done here.

 

+ higher chance of farther away spawn

Unless this means that there's still a chance of spawning near by and you will eventually come back here with the exact same complaints not even half satisfied. Sorry, I did not mean to drag this one out further, but your newborn quote if worded out differently, is slightly bit misleading in nature.

 

edit: 

 

This is going to make me sound like a smartass, but if the character models were to ignore light/shadowmaps, wouldn't that technically make them fullbright? Not meaning to imply it's a bad idea, just wondering.

Also, it would be helpful if players could adjust the opacity and thickness of the outlines within reasonable amounts(not letting outlines exceed the size of the hitbox.)

I'm assuming with fullbright everyone is referring to, or at least the kind of one which everyone is so afraid of would be something like this. Especially with the argument that DLCs would lose value if this was made possible. I wouldn't see any problem in that if the models stay true to their brushwork/colour/shape whilst they stand out from dark areas clearly with the model texture colours in their brightest. 

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Enjoy never getting the good spawns because the opponent forces you out from there to the crappier ones where it's easier to frag you. The luck can now only favor the spawn killer. GG, I guess we're done here.

 

Easier to frag != free frag cuz he spawns right in your face. It's a big difference. And as seekax mentioned it also avoids getting fragged by some dude that spawns right in your face after a fight you barely survived. I'd say the amount of luck gets reduced by a good amount.

 

 

 

Unless this means that there's still a chance of spawning near by and you will eventually come back here with the exact same complaints not even half satisfied. Sorry, I did not mean to drag this one out further, but your newborn quote if worded out differently, is slightly bit misleading in nature.

 

- closest spawn + higher chance of farther away spawn ...so there's a good chance that will barely happen... and not 6 times in a match.

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Easier to frag != free frag cuz he spawns right in your face. It's a big difference. And as seekax mentioned it also avoids getting fragged by some dude that spawns right in your face after a fight you barely survived. I'd say the amount of luck gets reduced by a good amount.

Luck is reduced yes, but not in a fair way. Say if you're the survivor, what if you barely survived because you made a mistake, judged the situation wrong and the opponent simply played it out better and came inches away to beating your ass, but ultimately lost because of whatever courses of luck lead to you surviving with 5hp + the fact that he had half the stack you had? Why would he not deserve to get lucky once in a while and why is it frowned upon so differently as if direct rockets to randomly guessed spawn points are less dirty? I guess it's silly arguing with you because you hate the whole concept of luck and spawn kills in particular, however my point still stands. With this system, luck favors the one with the guns pointed at spawn points more.

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Luck is reduced yes, but not in a fair way. Say if you're the survivor, what if you barely survived because you made a mistake, judged the situation wrong and the opponent simply played it out better and came inches away to beating your ass, but ultimately lost because of whatever courses of luck lead to you surviving with 5hp + the fact that he had half the stack you had? Why would he not deserve to get lucky once in a while and why is it frowned upon so differently as if direct rockets to randomly guessed spawn points are less dirty? I guess it's silly arguing with you because you hate the whole concept of luck and spawn kills in particular, however my point still stands. With this system, luck favors the one with the guns pointed at spawn points more.

 

oh no he clicked the mouse at the right time by accident and killed me :o

 

must be luck ! 

 

 In that scenario he has less margin for error than you so him "just playing it out better" doesn't guarantee the kill like it would if you were on even stack, and the fact that you are more stacked than him is his fault. Thats not luck.

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I like the QW spawn system (random).  I like people getting telefragged by new spawns (completely avoidable if you move around them!), I like both bad and good luck.  This is a game not a math problem.  Some of the best matches I've watched and played are full of both bad and good luck.   Even with it's random nature rarely do spawns actually decide matches in QW.  Also luck goes both ways, you just need to play to maximize your opportunities.

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Luck is reduced yes, but not in a fair way. Say if you're the survivor, what if you barely survived because you made a mistake, judged the situation wrong and the opponent simply played it out better and came inches away to beating your ass, but ultimately lost because of whatever courses of luck lead to you surviving with 5hp + the fact that he had half the stack you had? Why would he not deserve to get lucky once in a while and why is it frowned upon so differently as if direct rockets to randomly guessed spawn points are less dirty? I guess it's silly arguing with you because you hate the whole concept of luck and spawn kills in particular, however my point still stands. With this system, luck favors the one with the guns pointed at spawn points more.

 

What the fuck did i just read. :D

 

If he has double the stack you have and wins the fight with 5 hp. That's still a fight.... which is based on: he has better item control. If you choose to fight someone that you know has double the stack ... and you lose the fight... that's literally your own fault. If he wins a fight because of his better item control, what's lucky about that? He clearly knew he can't beat you on even stacks, so outplaying might be a solid solution. If you can't judge an item stack, get better item control etc ... why the hell would you deserve some luck with spawns? That's just mind boggling.

 

Yes, i hate the concept of luck in a competitive game. Every person with a sane mind should. There's nothing competitive about luck.

 

Let's get real:

 

CPMA doesn't have that problem with spawns. QL doesn't have that problems with spawns. Both games have similar systems, from what i got told by CPMA and QL players. To quote newborn: "oh yeah, fuck random spawns".

 

So it's not gonna happen anyways.

 

With the system that will come you will:

 

- get rewarded by killing someone, because you can force spawns to some degree

- not get spawn fragged for no reason -> chance to sneak back in and not just get fragged because "fuck you, that's why" aka luck

- you won't get punished for surviving a duel with 5 hp, why the hell should you

 

Sounds legit.

 

One quick example of how retarded random spawns are: i won against aliasedfrog today. How? Lucky spawn kills. He didnt get a single one. Without those spawn kills i'd have literally lost. How is that fair? Why should some random luck decide over a match? Mind blowing to me.

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Why not be able to choose your spawn?

 

Or tweak the spawn system in some way.  For example, allow no spawn to be chosen more than one time, until all others have been chosen as well.  If one doesn't choose a spawn (doubtless assigned to the keyboard) then the spawn algorithm runs with a semi-random biased spawn instead.

 

At least in this manner you have some control even if it does complicate the process.

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BDM3 f.e ..that map is SO small and SO fast, i doubt you could prevent spawn killing at all on this map.

And yet it stands as the best map.

 

Have biased spawns been added in 30.1?  Watching Hal, I'm seeing A LOT less spawn kills.

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