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A. Benz

Top (max) 5 things, that you dislike the most about Reflex (05.01.2015)

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The problem with this is that one direct rocket leaves you in even worse position. Think about it like this, IF I frag you, then at least you respawn with 100 HP, and a chance to get items, weapons, etc... If you have 125 HP, a direct rocket leaves you crippled, and unable to fight for anything.

 

Well the 'worse position' is subjective because one gives you a disadvantage on the scoreboard and one gives you a disadvantage on the map. Yes I have 5hp but I do not allow him to gain a point on the scoreboard. 

 

There's a bunch of scenarios, one where the spawn system allows for spawn frags, and the other that doesn't allow for that (puts them away from the opponent, like the QL spawn system). Then there's the spawn health, one that's 100hp and one that's 105hp (or anything that doesn't allow in a one shot frag)

 

Spawn system allows for spawn frags, 100hp

Spawn system allows for spawn frags, 105hp

Spawn system that prevents spawn frags, 100hp

Spawn system that prevents spawn frags, 105hp  

 

ohhhhh snap WHAT NOW 

 

btw CTF definitely needs to be added ASAP. NA pickup chans will noXplode no DOUBT

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^^This ^^

 

The sooner skill-based matchmaking is implemented, the better. New players will want to play more if they don't get stomped every match. Also, having the rank system be obvious and satisfying will keep players hooked. Perhaps implementing the ELO system or something similar to it, and showing how much your rank is going down or up each match, would help give new players incentive to play and get better. Maybe there could even be graphs to show how you have improved over time. It would also be cool if the server browser listed the average ELO/rank of the players on each server(only if they're ranked, obviously).

 

The worst feeling as a noob is feeling alone. I don't play Street Fighter because I feel like I'm the only player on earth who has no idea what they're doing. I'm sure that a lot of people feel the same way about CPMA/Reflex, or maybe just arena FPS in general (it's far from rare to hear someone say "Quake was fun, I always sucked at it though"). Helping noobs have fun and feel comfortable playing/learning is very important to making the community grow.  :)

 

there needs to be a separation between the skills. if you're new to DM, you should 100% be playing with new players. you shouldn't be eexposedto maps that require advanced jumps and you shouldn't be exposed to way better players than you. 

 

maps should have a clear skill level shown on them, something maybe from 1-5. if you're a new player, you should be on maps 1-2, meaning there's no advanced movement mechanics required to obtain any item or powerup. there should be an official pool of maps for these players, so servers have a constant amount of friendly, new maps. custom maps are great, ridiculous custom maps with weird stuff is not (for new players). Have 'approved' maps in the workshop. 

 

there should be an auto queue 'play now' button for these players like TF2 or CS:GO has. you pick a mode and get put somewhere. As long as there's a large amount of low skill players, this kind of format can work. I think everyone should be able to hit a 'play now' button for an unranked mode, but noobs need to stick together. more skilled players should never be put in these servers, ever. this is a fun, unranked mode, you could rank it in the back-end but the point is quick matches, just like CS:GO works. 

 

give people a server browser too. if the noobs want to explore, let them. give them an official outlet to have a positive experience though. 

 

MM with a rank should be done differently. I think you can do one map for TDM or CTF, and definitely one map for duel if it's TL 15 min. if it's 10 I suggest a BO3 for duel. you can pick/pick or drop/drop from a pool of maps, almost like how you would ban champions in League of Legends. 

 

MM shouldn't include elo IMO. I think ranks and subsets of ranks will do just fine. 

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there needs to be a separation between the skills. if you're new to DM, you should 100% be playing with new players. you shouldn't be eexposedto maps that require advanced jumps and you shouldn't be exposed to way better players than you. 

 

maps should have a clear skill level shown on them, something maybe from 1-5. if you're a new player, you should be on maps 1-2, meaning there's no advanced movement mechanics required to obtain any item or powerup. there should be an official pool of maps for these players, so servers have a constant amount of friendly, new maps. custom maps are great, ridiculous custom maps with weird stuff is not (for new players). Have 'approved' maps in the workshop. 

 

there should be an auto queue 'play now' button for these players like TF2 or CS:GO has. you pick a mode and get put somewhere. As long as there's a large amount of low skill players, this kind of format can work. I think everyone should be able to hit a 'play now' button for an unranked mode, but noobs need to stick together. more skilled players should never be put in these servers, ever. this is a fun, unranked mode, you could rank it in the back-end but the point is quick matches, just like CS:GO works. 

 

give people a server browser too. if the noobs want to explore, let them. give them an official outlet to have a positive experience though. 

 

MM with a rank should be done differently. I think you can do one map for TDM or CTF, and definitely one map for duel if it's TL 15 min. if it's 10 I suggest a BO3 for duel. you can pick/pick or drop/drop from a pool of maps, almost like how you would ban champions in League of Legends. 

 

MM shouldn't include elo IMO. I think ranks and subsets of ranks will do just fine. 

 

I agree with all of these ideas.

 

As for the last thing, that's what I meant when I said "or something similar". I think that rank should be something that is obvious, but not intrusive. Having tiers and sub-tiers(kind of like what CS:GO does) would be a perfect idea for a game like this, especially for duel. I think that ELO is deceiving, because it implies that you have an exact rank among players("My elo is 20 more than yours, therefore I'm much better than you!"). Tiers make it easier to think "this person is just as good/bad as I am", as opposed to "I'm better/worse than this person" like with the ELO system.

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I agree with all of these ideas.

 

As for the last thing, that's what I meant when I said "or something similar". I think that rank should be something that is obvious, but not intrusive. Having tiers and sub-tiers(kind of like what CS:GO does) would be a perfect idea for a game like this, especially for duel. I think that ELO is deceiving, because it implies that you have an exact rank among players("My elo is 20 more than yours, therefore I'm much better than you!"). Tiers make it easier to think "this person is just as good/bad as I am", as opposed to "I'm better/worse than this person" like with the ELO system.

 

people get fixated at numbers in almost any form. give sales people a quota and they go nuts. give quake players stats and suddenly a huge paranoia takes over, what about my stats? I truly believe stats hurt people more than they help, I also think most are apathetic about it too. Most probably couldn't care less. The same with ELO, people will just get fixated on the numbers and frustrate themselves. Some realize that they are their own worse enemy, many don't though. So yeah, named ranks all the way. I know some players will want a numerical number for ELO, but I truly believe there will be less whining and frustration if ranks are named, and the number is hidden.

 

since we are talking about MM, is the idea of a bot match thrown around? Sure QL missed the mark on a lot, but their bot match was a decent idea. Rank them depending on how well they do against a bot, and go from there. No doubt it has problems and it might be innacurate, but I can't think of a better idea to quickly determine someones rank. You could also do movement tests to make extra sure (a defrag like map, see how far you can make it) of their skill and rank them appropriately. The only other solution I see are a questions (user answers questions about their skill) and playing matches (maybe play 10 games to determine your rank). Both obviously have massive flaws and rely too much on outside variables. Pitting someone against a bot in a 1v1 mode can determine someones skill with more accuracy than either of the two other methods. I'm just wondering if anyone else has ideas or thoughts on the initial ranking system.

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people get fixated at numbers in almost any form. give sales people a quota and they go nuts. give quake players stats and suddenly a huge paranoia takes over, what about my stats? I truly believe stats hurt people more than they help, I also think most are apathetic about it too. Most probably couldn't care less. The same with ELO, people will just get fixated on the numbers and frustrate themselves. Some realize that they are their own worse enemy, many don't though. So yeah, named ranks all the way. I know some players will want a numerical number for ELO, but I truly believe there will be less whining and frustration if ranks are named, and the number is hidden.

While it may be true there's more whining than collective usefulness in being able to track your progress and compare it to others as reference, whinge about game stats/ranks is not even a real problem. It will always be present in a form or another no matter what you do about it, but it doesn't actually break anything. If something, whining is a proof that there's competition going on in the game and that some are dedicated enough to take it that seriously. Others are good sports about it and others not so much, there's just simply not much you can do about it.

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There's nothing i particularly dislike about the game anymore, the only thing which annoys me at the moment actually is the forum structure. Text shouldn't be wider than ~130 characters, it's just bad to read. I guess i could resolve this myself by just getting a third monitor in portrait mode, unfortunately i don't have the space right now.

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most of this talk about chain fragging is intrinsic to the genre. if the success rate were always effectively static, players would be playing rocket arena 1v1. in CS, team economy precipitates this type of thing: having been unsuccessful initially, the chance of consecutive success falls somewhat, and vice-versa.

 

the onus is mostly on map designers to ensure that balanced exchanges are compelling and that economy exchanges aren't uncompelling for too long. probably over a wide player-base playing a lot of games, on any particular map, you want the player who is not in control of to win 33% of such exchanges.

 

frags off spawn aren't intrinsically bad, but comprising a high percentage of exchanges definitely isn't good, it is a problem is because it is stupid to watch. if one player's lead comes from 5 frags off spawn, the other player's return must also come from 5 frags off spawn, spectators are then watching a bad map segment result in a boring stalemate, unless each player has performed something with astronomical odds. personally i think the most elegant solution to this very difficult map design problem is vanilla movement, instead of 'promode.' that way the maps can be considered in terms of position, instead of in terms of possible routes. 

 

 until someone builds a promode map inspector that can generate routes and outliers on both UPS and resultant position, you're not going to wind up with a very large base of maps that make sense, at all levels of play. the design of a quality CS map come from a sort of texture of timing and placement. it's very easy to visualize, and it never feels too out of reach to execute, though it is difficult. the fact that promode generally discounts position and players become this spinning rocket launcher on a rollercoaster that will occasionally stop and LG an opponent who took a jumppad at an inoppurtune time randomly, is a type of map design flaw that could only be fixed with a tool that seeks such outlying routes automatically. The rate at which the speeding enemy could arrive without knowing the player took the pad (not en route) is less than the sum of the player's reaction time to respond to such a route and the length of time in the air from the jump pad. so having decided to hop on a pad, there is 1/(total fast map routes) chance that the player is going to be exposed arbitrarily and at a potentially lethal disadvantage. for each fast map route in the map, a proper promode mapping tool should should ensure that lethal advantages can only occur randomly like 10% of the time. so for a map of 10 fast routes, you only get 1 jumppad. obviously this is just an approximation and the realities of such a tool are much more difficult and complicated. it's great that promode maps occasionally work right for some subset of the playerbase upon another, but if history shows anything, position is more spectator-friendly than route.

 

just introduce complexity or pace somewhere else, because no one has made tools to get promode maps to work well yet.

 

e: oh also, havn't seen any ammo boxes, probably could be useful in designing maps that make sense for people to make plays on.

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e: oh also, havn't seen any ammo boxes, probably could be useful in designing maps that make sense for people to make plays on.

 

I actually like the lack of ammo boxes, it's easier to remember where each weapon is and get back to it when you're out of ammo than remembering the location of all the ammo boxes on the map.

Another solution would be generic ammo boxes like in Quake live (which I kinda like too), but the idea that it refills all your weapons just a little seems weird. Or maybe a generic ammo box that refills only the weapon you're using when you pick it up ?

 

I still think no ammo boxes at all is the best solution, it keeps things simple.

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I still think no ammo boxes at all is the best solution, it keeps things simple.

I was just suggesting it because all the maps I've played seem to turn weapons into impassable chokes, instead of reasonably siegeable chokes. Figure the map designers might have wanted you to swoop in grab a weapon and skip the engagement if at all possible, but you can't really do that either, because if you run out of ammo before killing literally everyone it does you no good because elsewhere, outside of instant unwinnable engagement, there is no more ammo.

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@baaked

 

interesting perspectives, I only want to add that as a mapper Reflex is at a very early, fun stage because of 1) the similarity to CPMA and 2) the alpha state of gameplay mechanics. I'd be curious if you've tried making a map yourself :) your feedback could also be useful for other maps over in the mapping forum.

 

It will be very interesting to see what kind of standards will emerge for Reflex over time. As did stairs to ledges and wildcard ramps in CPMA. It's also very exciting because cpm3, cpm1, cpm22 might be the most played but are relatively tame design-wise. There aren't even ramps in any of those. I hope Reflex mappers will keep pushing forward, past the burden of cpm3 and I agree that the mapping scene will be very important. Which is also the reason the Reflex community should be deeply invested in playtesting new maps, in form of tournaments and maybe a structured reviewing/playtesting process.

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@baaked

 I'd be curious if you've tried making a map yourself :) your feedback could also be useful for other maps over in the mapping forum.

 

Started doodling having written as much as I did on the subject. tried placing a doublejump ramp on a diagonal and ended up making collision act funny. haven't inspected the phenomenon enough to state whether or not it wasn't something i did.

 

lack of player clipping is kind of going to limit map design. i just haven't seen any spots that blow my mind. the low tickrate sort of inflates the value of RL on these small-ish maps though, which could change alot of the play that should be fun on bdm3, and such. really ground play on the maps that i've played is very weak, bdm3, cpm3, dustro. a shining gem (for a dumb-ish gametype, namely 2v2tdm) was thcdm6. though i think the flow was hurt too much by difficult circle jumps to LG and MH, that should really have an 'easy' route that could be taken when not being pressured. 

 

the mapper's forum could use a rating system, and the mappers should be required to restrict maps to gametype and playercount.

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1. No ammo pickups

 

2. New player sounds

 

3. Pain in the ass to create round shaped objects in the editor

 

4. Editor not having an rotate feature

 

5. If i have to name a fifth thing, then is prolly steam workshop not being present yet / rl is weapon of choice often and feels kinda superrior to other weapons.

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1.  Splash radius for rockets is too low, rewarding good movement / noob rushing, over good positioning.

2.  I wasn't bothered about the lg pushback or dmg but I'm fine with the nerf, however the range is still too high.

3.  Movement is a little too easy and reminds me of pql/turbo, it should stay easier than cpm though (a game on which you have to train movement for weeks just for the right to claim that you suck).  Personally I'm not a fan of the triple jump but I'm not bothered if it stays.  With that being said, clipping should be introduced to maintain fluidity: either people have to get a line perfectly, take a wider route around the corner, or stick to an edge and grit their teeth in frustration.

4.  The game is far too similiar to cpm, I already have cpm.

5.  The ammo system: the quakeworld system offers greater tactical depth and options for mapmakers.  I wouldn't say this is something that I dislike about the game, more like something that I would like to see changed.

 

With that said, I still think the developers are doing a wonderful job.

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1. There should be a mode for newbies with item-timers, visible spawnpoints, visible enemy health- and armor-bars

2. sound (It's very hard to go down stairs silently, weapon-switching is too loud.. jump-sound doesn't fit the new drop-sound.. )

3. limited map-editor functions (not able to rotate, multi-select, mirror, flip, create displacements, arches, doors, trains/elevators, buttons... etc.)

4. limited console commands (not able to change crosshairsize, crosshairoutline, crosshair-hitblink, not able to save a build lightmap into a file on your harddrive.. sometimes I build lightmap and when I restart server it's lost again.. even if I type savemap mapname in console.. )

5. not all weaponmodels / skins are completed

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1.  Splash radius for rockets is too low, rewarding good movement / noob rushing, over good positioning.

2.  I wasn't bothered about the lg pushback or dmg but I'm fine with the nerf, however the range is still too high.

3.  Movement is a little too easy and reminds me of pql/turbo, it should stay easier than cpm though (a game on which you have to train movement for weeks just for the right to claim that you suck).  Personally I'm not a fan of the triple jump but I'm not bothered if it stays.  With that being said, clipping should be introduced to maintain fluidity: either people have to get a line perfectly, take a wider route around the corner, or stick to an edge and grit their teeth in frustration.

4.  The game is far too similiar to cpm, I already have cpm.

5.  The ammo system: the quakeworld system offers greater tactical depth and options for mapmakers.  I wouldn't say this is something that I dislike about the game, more like something that I would like to see changed.

 

With that said, I still think the developers are doing a wonderful job.

Not trying to argue about opinions but throwing in the other side of the coin:

To me, CPMA is the best game ever made. It requires huge amount of skill but can still be fun and casual, but still being one of the most competetitive games out there. The fact is that cpm is over 10 yeards old. Playerbase has stayed the same for god knows for how long. It's perfect, but it's still a mod for quake 3 and the engine is old. But now we have reflex, which is basically like saying: "hey dude, we know you loved cpm so we're making this awesome game which is like cpm but with all these features a game made past 2010 should have: matchmaking, better graphics, better engine etc. all that shit. Basically cpma 2.0 but not quite".

I don't see anything wrong with reflex being similar to cpm, because cpm was the perfect competitive fps game.

Hell, this game would be easily worth 20 bucks to me even if it was 1 to 1 copy of cpm but with matchmaking and ten times larger playerbase.

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Not trying to argue about opinions but throwing in the other side of the coin:

To me, CPMA is the best game ever made. It requires huge amount of skill but can still be fun and casual, but still being one of the most competetitive games out there. The fact is that cpm is over 10 yeards old. Playerbase has stayed the same for god knows for how long. It's perfect, but it's still a mod for quake 3 and the engine is old. But now we have reflex, which is basically like saying: "hey dude, we know you loved cpm so we're making this awesome game which is like cpm but with all these features a game made past 2010 should have: matchmaking, better graphics, better engine etc. all that shit. Basically cpma 2.0 but not quite".

I don't see anything wrong with reflex being similar to cpm, because cpm was the perfect competitive fps game.

Hell, this game would be easily worth 20 bucks to me even if it was 1 to 1 copy of cpm but with matchmaking and ten times larger playerbase.

 

I thought your response was awesome and I'm glad that you obviously respect cpm as much as I do, if not more.  I heavily disagree with your claim that the playerbase has stayed the same though, if you were referring to volume as I assumed: I haven't been on the servers in a while and maybe interest in reflex has boosted the numbers somewhat, but last time I was playing (about 3 months ago) the servers were so quiet that one could have described the mod as being close to death, and it was considerably easier to find a match in quakeworld.

 

Personally I'd be cool with it if reflex became a 1:1 copy of cpm, it wouldn't be ideal for me and this thread serves as a good place to mention that, but if it did I'd still play it.  No game or mod can please absolutely.

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I thought your response was awesome and I'm glad that you obviously respect cpm as much as I do, if not more.  I heavily disagree with your claim that the playerbase has stayed the same though, if you were referring to volume as I assumed: I haven't been on the servers in a while and maybe interest in reflex has boosted the numbers somewhat, but last time I was playing (about 3 months ago) the servers were so quiet that one could have described the mod as being close to death, and it was considerably easier to find a match in quakeworld.

 

Personally I'd be cool with it if reflex became a 1:1 copy of cpm, it wouldn't be ideal for me and this thread serves as a good place to mention that, but if it did I'd still play it.  No game or mod can please absolutely.

The servers have been basically "dead" for as long as I remember. Some CA servers had people back in 2008. People always played mostly pickup games arranged in irc.

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These are mostly things that would immediately help, not big stuff.

 

-can't tell if carnage is enemy or friend

-can't callvote to lock specific team sizes (2v2, 3v3, etc) which means lopsided teams happen always as people join mid-game (queue for tdm?)

-no randomize team command (great for pickups)

-no indicator where spawns are on the map

-no ammo

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is floor damage intended? I've gotta say that definitely needs to go asap. duel is going to be really awkward with it. i was getting weird kills today just from that splash and floor damage.

 

Will get fixed some day.

 

Regards

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