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0.30.x - New! Improved! Netcode!

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Is it a known bug that sometimes the direction you're looking is off when you spawn? Seems to happen when you move your mouse around moments before spawning, like if you look down you spawn while looking at your feet. Needless to say that is extremely annoying.

 

Go pick a fucking health bubble next time you win the fight.  ;)

 

its a known bug that mouse-input is not disabled while death. thats why u get that weird pov after spawn

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hi!

 

this update seems to include many cool things. however, i just tried it out and it doesnt feel very smooth at all. does any one else notice a kind of jittery/not very smooth feeling? i have good excellent ping and fps so it must be something else.

 

what's your hardware & OS setup like? this has been reported by one other so far, could you provide some more details?

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wait what? this was fixed in 0.30.2, I can't repro it any more. Are you guys definitely on .30.2 ?

 

oh lol ;-)

 

i didnt try to reproduce yet. i thought its still in coz he reported it

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Is it a known bug that sometimes the direction you're looking is off when you spawn? Seems to happen when you move your mouse around moments before spawning, like if you look down you spawn while looking at your feet. Needless to say that is extremely annoying.

 

Go pick a fucking health bubble next time you win the fight.  ;)

Go pick up a health bubble within the 500ms it takes for the opponent to respawn and even if you manage to do that, the damage of the bubble blaster will most likely still suffice to finish you off. Winning a fight and then losing the major item you just fought for is insanely frustrating and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

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Winning a fight and then losing the major item you just fought for is insanely frustrating and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

You could make a strong argument that isn't about spawns at all but the blaster being too strong.

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It's not impossible, it's just not very likely. The logic behind the current design is: Spawning right near where you died isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it gives you a chance to finish of a weakened enemy or deny the item you were fighting for. This system still allows that to occasionally happen. The undesirable case in a pure random system is repeatedly getting close spawns. This system makes that unlikely. I can't give an exact figure but the chances of respawning at each of the closest spawns is around 4%. The undesirable case in a "spawn furthest" system is how predictable it makes the respawn. This system is designed to be somewhere in the middle, avoiding the worst parts of full-random/furthest -- it still gives variation in respawn positions without "bad luck" letting someone get a 5 frag advantage.

Aerowalk is of course the toughest case. It's a small map with limited respawn points and there are a lot of positions where you have LoS on a lot of spawns but lets go through it on paper anyway:

If someone has a good hold of the bottom of the RA stairs and kills you at the nearby GA/RL, where is the "best" place to respawn?

  • Obviously at the nearby GA isn't great but it could work out for you -- you're slightly behind your target with a quick escape through the tele, a top tier weapon, potentially an instant armor and a potentially a rush at Mega/YA. The biasing on this spawn would be 5, meaning it's possible but not heaps likely.
  • Spawning at the bottom near the SG isn't great either. Positional disadvantage, mid tier weapon that's really predictable to go for, medium range of the person spawn killing. If they can't aim you could possibly steal a mega or yellow, otherwise you're likely best just taking the tele to the GA to break the line of sight. The biasing on this spawn would be 5 if it was the second closest to where you died, otherwise it would be 50.
  • Spawning on the RA isn't bad, especially if the RA is up. If not, you've still got a quick IC grab and a solid positional advantage. Again, biasing would be 5 if it was the second closest to where you died, otherwise it would be 50.
  • Spawning near the jump pad isn't great -- you're not really close to any significant items and going for IC/RL isn't heaps safe. Once you've taken the pad, you've got a slight positional advantage heading towards RA or RL but generally, this is a bad place to spawn if someone is ready to spawn kill. This would be a middle distance spawn so the biasing would be 50.
  • Now we're getting to the further spawns. Spawning on the GL/GA isn't too bad -- good cover, possible instant GA, safe-ish steal of YA, quick-ish path to BR/RL etc. One of the safer spawns. The biasing of this spawn would be 75.
  • Spawning at upper RL isn't bad either. Safe, instant high tier weapon, lots of options about where to go, positional advantage etc. The biasing on this spawn would also be 75.
Edit: I also just had a simple idea that might provide some defence against your respawn point being prefired at and give you a chance to turn an unlucky respawn into a lucky one.

Thanks for the detailed writeup. Really appreciate it. I simply should play more to get a better feeling for it I think.

and I am looking forward to your new idea :-)

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Go pick up a health bubble within the 500ms it takes for the opponent to respawn and even if you manage to do that, the damage of the bubble blaster will most likely still suffice to finish you off. Winning a fight and then losing the major item you just fought for is insanely frustrating and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

You're assuming that it was luck by the opponent that he managed to strip you to below 10hp and thus it's all unfair/bullshit luck to frag you right away after a spawn. I mean, come on that's the point of being a down player, killing you little by little. Ultimately, you're in danger of getting reverse spawn fragged no matter where he spawns, if you don't get health then dying is partially your fault. To me it looks like everyone who whines about this only care about things ever going well only for themselves.

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Guest d

what's your hardware & OS setup like? this has been reported by one other so far, could you provide some more details?

 

Hi,

 

OS is Windows 7 Home Premium. Service Pack 1. 64 bit.

Resolution in windows is 1920x1080. For the purpose of testing i also tried1600x900 in windows.

Monitor is Benq XL2420t.

Hardware is Intel i5-3450, 3 Ghz. RAM 8 gig. Gfx Nvidia Geforce GTX 670.

 

I figured it was something with the vsync or resolution or something so i changed the resolution in Reflex from 1280x720 to 1600x900 and, also, 1920x1080, which worked! I did this while still on 1920x1080 in windows.  Further, I changed the resolution in windows to 1600x900, which worked in Reflex using both 1920x1080 and 1600x900, but not 1280x720. So, it turns out I cant play the new Reflex update on 1280x720. This is a bit of a bummer for me since I used to play QW in 320x240 - and enjoy playing Reflex in 1280x720. : D

 

Is this info sufficient? Thanks.

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You're assuming that it was luck by the opponent that he managed to strip you to below 10hp and thus it's all unfair/bullshit luck to frag you right away after a spawn. I mean, come on that's the point of being a down player, killing you little by little. Ultimately, you're in danger of getting reverse spawn fragged no matter where he spawns, if you don't get health then dying is partially your fault. To me it looks like everyone who whines about this only care about things ever going well only for themselves.

 

People have a tendency to offer opinions on things like this while only ever considering that they will be in the dominant position.

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You're assuming that it was luck by the opponent that he managed to strip you to below 10hp and thus it's all unfair/bullshit luck to frag you right away after a spawn. I mean, come on that's the point of being a down player, killing you little by little. Ultimately, you're in danger of getting reverse spawn fragged no matter where he spawns, if you don't get health then dying is partially your fault.

 

If you are in an equal stack fight for red then nobody is the down player and if you leave an equal stack fight with 60+ hp then your opponent must be pretty bad. Getting health, as i already said, is impossible in that time frame, so how is it the winners fault for not picking any up.

If you win the fight for an item you should get it, no luck percentage for the loser to still win the prize.

 

To me it looks like everyone who whines about this only care about things ever going well only for themselves.

Also defamation is no way to argue.

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If you are in an equal stack fight for red then nobody is the down player and if you leave an equal stack fight with 60+ hp then your opponent must be pretty bad. Getting health, as i already said, is impossible in that time frame, so how is it the winners fault for not picking any up.

If you win the fight for an item you should get it, no luck percentage for the loser to still win the prize.

 

Also defamation is no way to argue.

 

If a fight ends with the winner on low enough hp or ammo that a freshly spawned player can kill them, then quite easily the fight could have gone the other way -- the winner owes their life in part to a bit of luck. At the same time, my intuition about spawning is that every available spawn (where available spawns does not necessarily include every possible spawn) should have the same probability of being chosen, otherwise those times when you get a low probability spawn seem more 'random' and unexpected. The way it is in QL seems sensible to me -- equal chance of being one of the 50% of spawns furthest from the living player at the time of spawning. There is enough randomness that the living player cannot know exactly where the other one is, whilst not allowing ridiculously close spawns.

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Didn't like the hit beeps at first, but definitely glad they're audible and unique, and they did grow on me a bit. I don't like the new hurt sounds or landing sounds at all though. Hurt noise sounds like some squealing pig, idk about the landing sound, kind of sounds like you've got a book bag full of sticks tied to each foot. That one isn't so bad, I just really enjoyed the previous metalic sounding one.

 

Also really hope you fix the whole "shoot people through the floor with rockets because I'm a brainless scrub desperate for frags and not thinking." thing soon. That one makes me salty not going to lie.

 

Other wise great update, game is super solid and fun.

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Wow.  This is a great update.  Feels fantastic.

 

For all those reading I have a small question from a long time ago.  Turning off show weapon (or whatever) yields some visual oddities.  Thus, I turned the weapons back on.  Is this by design?  Do they want their weapons to be shown?

 

Thank yas!

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Also really hope you fix the whole "shoot people through the floor with rockets because I'm a brainless scrub desperate for frags and not thinking." thing soon. That one makes me salty not going to lie.

Soon.

 

For all those reading I have a small question from a long time ago.  Turning off show weapon (or whatever) yields some visual oddities.  Thus, I turned the weapons back on.  Is this by design?  Do they want their weapons to be shown?

It's not by design, it's just a pretty low priority issue to fix right now.

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If you are in an equal stack fight for red then nobody is the down player and if you leave an equal stack fight with 60+ hp then your opponent must be pretty bad. Getting health, as i already said, is impossible in that time frame, so how is it the winners fault for not picking any up.

Again, it seems like you're just upset about one minor inconvenience. Equal stack is a less likely situation than an uneven stack, that's the thing with tiered armors. (Biased) random system is fair and makes the chain of events for matches more intense and less repetitive, like you would expect from a traditional arena shooter. Alternative would be a predictable spawn system with possibility for easy spawn kill sprees where the inconvenience is actually multiplied for the receiving end from where we're tired of hearing complains too, are we not? I get it, it's fun to whack-a-mole forced spawns, but this game is supposed to be competitive. 

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Again, it seems like you're just upset about one minor inconvenience. Equal stack is a less likely situation than an uneven stack, that's the thing with tiered armors. (Biased) random system is fair and makes the chain of events for matches more intense and less repetitive, like you would expect from a traditional arena shooter. Alternative would be a predictable spawn system with possibility for easy spawn kill sprees where the inconvenience is actually multiplied for the receiving end from where we're tired of hearing complains too, are we not? I get it, it's fun to whack-a-mole forced spawns, but this game is supposed to be competitive. 

 

So CPMA isn't competitive?

Even if the stacks aren't even, as you said the out of control player is supposed to slowly knock down the in control player until he can challenge for the big items and get in control. If you get back in control by luckily getting a good spawn, stealing an item and hitting two shots with the bubble blaster on the former in control player that's not exactly competitive either. That's just luck.

Maybe if the bubble blaster wasn't so damn strong in cqb that would still be fair, but currently it's winning control by luck.

I'm usually on the receiving end of spawnfrags and i'm not complaining about it, i am the out of control player, i'll get fragged a couple of times until i get back in control anyways. A spawnfrag doesn't knock you down any further than you are anyways while the luck spawn is very disappointing for the former in control player because it turns a win into a loss without the former out of control player having done any work.

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So CPMA isn't competitive?

I don't find forcing spawns competitive.
 

That's just luck.

Luck is a silly argument anyway, if we spend enough time we can turn anything into a matter of luck. I'll show you how.

 

A spawnfrag doesn't knock you down any further than you are anyways while the luck spawn is very disappointing for the former in control player because it turns a win into a loss without the former out of control player having done any work.

It knocks you down depending on how many lucky convenient spawns the spawn killer gets and depending on how lucky the spawn killer got with his positioning after the last encounter with the enemy. Sometimes you get a lucky spawn frag and several lucky spawn frags in row, the chances for good luck are even bigger when you can force the spawns from selected few. Why would the winner of the fight deserve the chance of luck for multiple easy conversion frags more than the one losing the fight deserve a chance (a reduced chance) to getting back in control? I've seen way more lucky conversion frag sprees than lucky getting back in controls (getting back in control situations that actually matter, where you're not already 20-30 points behind). Biased random spawn system will hopefully level the field.

 

You're obviously upset about losing control due to bad luck, you have less experience in dealing with lucky spawns, because you're not used to that ever occurring in CPMA where you never have to watch out for the spawn behind your back. With biased random spawns the luck doesn't one sidedly favor just the spawn killer, but also the one spawning. Players of each side just needs to learn to adapt to it, it's doable and crying arguing about it in forums is not the way to do it.

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I don't find forcing spawns competitive.
 

Luck is a silly argument anyway, if we spend enough time we can turn anything into a matter of luck. I'll show you how.

 
 

It knocks you down depending on how many lucky convenient spawns the spawn killer gets and depending on how lucky the spawn killer got with his positioning after the last encounter with the enemy. Sometimes you get a lucky spawn frag and several lucky spawn frags in row, the chances for good luck are even bigger when you can force the spawns from selected few. Why would the winner of the fight deserve the chance of luck for multiple easy conversion frags more than the one losing the fight deserve a chance (a reduced chance) to getting back in control? I've seen way more lucky conversion frag sprees than lucky getting back in controls (getting back in control situations that actually matter, where you're not already 20-30 points behind). Biased random spawn system will hopefully level the field.

 

You're obviously upset about losing control due to bad luck, you have less experience in dealing with lucky spawns, because you're not used to that ever occurring in CPMA where you never have to watch out for the spawn behind your back. With biased random spawns the luck doesn't one sidedly favor just the spawn killer, but also the one spawning. Players of each side just needs to learn to adapt to it, it's doable and crying arguing about it in forums is not the way to do it.

 

Most spawnfrags aren't luck in cpma, you barely ever see evenly matched players getting long spawnfragchains, the larger the skill gap, the more often the more skilled player gets spawnfrags. Simply because the better player has better map control and a better gamesense. If your opponent can keep you in a spawnkill chain long enough to knock you out of the match then you would've most likely lost anyways. The luck spawn however requires 0 skill at all. It doesn't require map knowledge or gamesense, even the worst player can easily get a lucky respawn frag on a top player. This doesn't level the luck, this just makes the gap between good and bad players smaller and if that makes a game more competitive to you then we have different definitions of the word competitive.

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Most spawnfrags aren't luck in cpma, you barely ever see evenly matched players getting long spawnfragchains, the larger the skill gap, the more often the more skilled player gets spawnfrags. Simply because the better player has better map control and a better gamesense. If your opponent can keep you in a spawnkill chain long enough to knock you out of the match then you would've most likely lost anyways. 

I can just convert that right back at you, if you lose because of a lucky spawn and stolen item then you would have probably just lost the control eventually anyway. If you're that "dead" and incapable of picking a HP bubble after a won fight, then it doesn't matter where the enemy spawns you're most likely fucked up anyway, especially in small maps like Aerowalk. 

 

The luck spawn however requires 0 skill at all. It doesn't require map knowledge or gamesense, even the worst player can easily get a lucky respawn frag on a top player. This doesn't level the luck, this just makes the gap between good and bad players smaller and if that makes a game more competitive to you then we have different definitions of the word competitive.

It's not a matter of it requiring skill, it's a matter of how you deal with it when it's thrown at your face. You perceive lucky spawns as luck, I perceive it as you choking and not knowing what to do in that situation. You win a fight over an item, enemy spawns next to you and finishes you off. You spawn again and now you have to do something about it. It's a situation the game throws at you and it forces the unlucky player to improvise, instead of that repetitive and predictable spawn routine you're so used in CPMA. I find (biased) random spawn system more competitive and exciting any day. Sure, there's occasionally some pesky luck going on, but at least the matches don't look identical to one and another.

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I can just convert that right back at you, if you lose because of a lucky spawn and stolen item then you would have probably just lost the control eventually anyway. If you're that "dead" and incapable of picking a HP bubble after a won fight, then it doesn't matter where the enemy spawns you're most likely fucked up anyway, especially in small maps like Aerowalk. 

No you wouldn't because in one of those situations i am talking about you are close to a high value item. So either you stack back up or you die but the opponent couldn't pick up the item, which means you would respawn with a close to equal stack.

 

 

It's not a matter of it requiring skill, it's a matter of how you deal with it when it's thrown at your face. You perceive lucky spawns as luck, I perceive it as you choking and not knowing what to do in that situation. You win a fight over an item, enemy spawns next to you and finishes you off. You spawn again and now you have to do something about it. It's a situation the game throws at you and it forces the unlucky player to improvise, instead of that repetitive and predictable spawn routine you're so used in CPMA. I find (biased) random spawn system more competitive and exciting any day. Sure, there's occasionally some pesky luck going on, but at least the matches don't look identical to one and another.

Then please tell me what you do when you are on the stairs by red on 22, kill your opponent and he instantly spawns on red. I would really like to know how you improvise in those 500ms to stay in control. Oh right, you pick up a health bubble.

I'd much rather have solid games which award players for good plays instead of random games which are interesting to watch but annoying for the players. People have been playing CPMA for 15 years, so it can't be that repetitive and boring.

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Then please tell me what you do when you are on the stairs by red on 22, kill your opponent and he instantly spawns on red. I would really like to know how you improvise in those 500ms to stay in control. Oh right, you pick up a health bubble.

Well, as any good player would, now that spawning sometimes close-by is a thing, you would be aware of that chance, so you would perhaps pre-fire to the RA spawn because that item is your top priority. Afterwards when he happens to spawn there, try to damage him as much as you can, rail him or hit him with an air rocket as he drops, by the time you see a glimpse of him it'd be a good moment to run away for hp IF you're low on HP, if not finish him off and don't let him get LG. If you can't finish him off, try to keep him trapped in that LG area, don't let him get to rocket. That's also one of the easiest spawns to hide from, you got a door in front of you with a HP bubble on the other side, you got a teleporter which brings you upstairs with a HP bubble and you got one at the bottom floor as well. If I seriously have to patronize you with these ideas then you haven't been playing Aerowalk the right way at all.

 

Anyway, now that you brought up an event that doesn't even have a high chance of happening anymore and like to exaggerate about it, how about these apples:

"If your opponent can keep you in a spawnkill chain long enough to knock you out of the match then you would've most likely lost anyways." 

Is this the skill you're talking about? Is this competitive? See I can exaggerate immaturely as well, are you having fun arguing yet?

 

I'd much rather have solid games which award players for good plays instead of random games which are interesting to watch but annoying for the players. People have been playing CPMA for 15 years, so it can't be that repetitive and boring.

We wouldn't be having Reflex if that 15 years of history really meant anything in eSports of today.

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Well, as any good player would, now that spawning sometimes close-by is a thing, you would be aware of that chance, so you would perhaps pre-fire to the RA spawn because that item is your top priority. Afterwards when he happens to spawn there, try to damage him as much as you can, rail him or hit him with an air rocket as he drops, by the time you see a glimpse of him it'd be a good moment to run away for hp IF you're low on HP, if not finish him off and don't let him get LG. If you can't finish him off, try to keep him trapped in that LG area, don't let him get to rocket. That's also one of the easiest spawns to hide from, you got a door in front of you with a HP bubble on the other side, you got a teleporter which brings you upstairs with a HP bubble and you got one at the bottom floor as well. If I seriously have to patronize you with these ideas then you haven't been playing Aerowalk the right way at all.

That will still cost you control. You have to waste time prefiring red and green armor, then if he spawns on red he will spawn with 100/150, that's at least 3 direct rockets to kill, by that time he will have killed you or gotten away with a significant stack. And even if you manage to win the scenario, the second respawn will finish you off. Containing the respawned played in the lg area is pretty much impossible as well because he now has stack advantage. Basically your way of not choking is to give up control and try another day.

 

 

Anyway, now that you brought up an event that doesn't even have a high chance of happening anymore and like to exaggerate about it, how about these apples:

 

Is this the skill you're talking about? Is this competitive? See I can exaggerate immaturely as well, are you having fun arguing yet?

Oh yea that's definitely a great argument, 4%+ chance in reflex vs an event which is so rare that mazu felt compelled to make a video about it.

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