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0.30.x - New! Improved! Netcode!

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Because arithmetic(calling it maths is just a joke, don't compliment yourselves) is such a skillful thing to do.

 

I play QL occasionally and when I do I find timing quite easy, I played a duel of Reflex recently where my primary focus was timing instead of my usual frag'n'collect routine and let me tell you, it was fucking boring. If ya'll want QL timing based duels go play QL, lol.

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Because arithmetic(calling it maths is just a joke, don't compliment yourselves) is such a skillful thing to do.

 

I play QL occasionally and when I do I find timing quite easy, I played a duel of Reflex recently where my primary focus was timing instead of my usual frag'n'collect routine and let me tell you, it was fucking boring. If ya'll want QL timing based duels go play QL, lol.

 

Good job on you deciding you want to focus on item timings ...and then complain. Is there any kinda logic to follow? Did someone FORCE you to focus on timings?! I don't get it...

 

I can't remember 1 situation where i actually calculated the timing of an item ..you know why...because i don't give a flying fuck about calculating. That's not how i (!!) want to play nor bother with. Going by feeling has played out quite ok so far for me... no magic might forced me to calculate timings..although the seconds are on the clock. Impressive i guess.

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Most viable in the game? I'm pretty sure i got beaten by people although i got better item control ....pretty often .... because i can't move and i can't aim.

 

Now if 2 equally skilled players play each other...and one has better item control ....and that leads to him winning. Doesn't he deserve it? Or what?

I said most viable, not canceling out everything else.

If two equally skilled players play each other and one has better item control then of course he should win, but if he had an equally large deficit in controlling his opponent (which just btw i think should be the most viable skill) i'd rather have him lose.

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are you seriously suggesting timing is the most viable skill in reflex? not movement, or aim, or positioning? is this real life?

Considering that the gameplay is in a very early state and hasn't been tested a whole lot yet i'd still say it definitely plays a more important role than in CPMA and for my taste it had just the right viability in CPMA.

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I said most viable, not canceling out everything else.

If two equally skilled players play each other and one has better item control then of course he should win, but if he had an equally large deficit in controlling his opponent (which just btw i think should be the most viable skill) i'd rather have him lose.

 

Ok, so what you are saying is: a player shouldn't be able to compensate skill A with skill B. Ok. You want to lower the skill ceiling. Fine. 

 

(if a player has so good timing he could compensate his "player controlling" skills with it ....what exactly prevented the enemy from controlling him? why is he able to have such a good timing? He obv. can't be good at controlling his enemy as well...)

 

Regards

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These clock arguments reminds me of the classic one from the original Doom.  Doom did not have a crosshair.  However how hard is it to place a piece of tape on the center of your monitor when you play?  It isn't.  There's no way to police such "cheats" either.  Every modern FPS and Doom source ports have crosshairs now.  The same goes for clocks.  If they aren't in game people will use external clocks on their desk or an in game overlay clock.  I'm fine playing by feel or with a clock but if something is unenforceable while being trivial to do and might offer an advantage it is better to just include it in game.  Ultimately I hope Reflex offers people options and players can use what they like best.

 

The only time it matters more than personal preference if your clock counts up or down is when you're playing a team mode and need to coordinate times.  I think clocks have a much bigger impact on teamplay modes than duel as well.  When you're trying to coordinate a bunch of players and figure out when the enemy took items clocks help immensely.  Also realize at the end of the day who wins often comes down to execution and skills.  You could give a low skill player exact times for everything on screen with voice overs and they would still fail vs a good player.

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The only thing I see better with no timer is that new players/casuals probably gonna find the items mechanichs more "easy", "intiutive" and less stressful if you have to just "feel" when the item is going to appear. If you let the clock stay maybe it'd be a good idea to make a "casual" mode with item hud timers ( yea thats very noob and all that but casuals dont really want to get incredibly good at any game, they just want to fuck around a bit and have fun)

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Ok, so what you are saying is: a player shouldn't be able to compensate skill A with skill B. Ok. You want to lower the skill ceiling. Fine. 

 

(if a player has so good timing he could compensate his "player controlling" skills with it ....what exactly prevented the enemy from controlling him? why is he able to have such a good timing? He obv. can't be good at controlling his enemy as well...)

 

Regards

That's not what was said at all. When players can get exact timing (read: at 1:35 red will spawn) they will be out at the item spawn at exactly 1:35. If the other player isn't doing the exact same thing (thus forcing a fight for that item)  then the item is picked up and there's no further sense in sticking around. This means that if one player has poorer timing, but better aim, they'll be constantly playing a game of powerup catch-up and will likely lose (source: QL and CPM tourney matches, and I've been that item timing player in my own more newbie oriented fights). Without that exact timing you get mistakes that can force fights, meaning players like me can't depend on stack to win against otherwise better opponents. You can't really get someone who is maximizing their output and simultaneously collecting everything precisely when it comes up, so there's a window for the better fighter to overtake the faster collector

 

As for player control, how is my opponent meant to control my movement when I have more ammo, armour and health, and know exactly when and where I need to be to get more?

 

 

The only thing I see better with no timer is that new players/casuals probably gonna find the items mechanichs more "easy", "intiutive" and less stressful if you have to just "feel" when the item is going to appear. If you let the clock stay maybe it'd be a good idea to make a "casual" mode with item hud timers ( yea thats very noob and all that but casuals dont really want to get incredibly good at any game, they just want to fuck around a bit and have fun)

Timers are more casual friendly actually, since you can tell someone "X is up in 30 seconds" and they can just add/subtract from the current time. It's much harder to judge what 30 seconds feels like when your information intake and sense of personal time aren't at a constant speed. Simply having a tutorial that explains item timers should suffice for introducing newbies. All I did was read a forum post and then I started practicing

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The only thing I see better with no timer is that new players/casuals probably gonna find the items mechanichs more "easy", "intiutive" and less stressful if you have to just "feel" when the item is going to appear. If you let the clock stay maybe it'd be a good idea to make a "casual" mode with item hud timers ( yea thats very noob and all that but casuals dont really want to get incredibly good at any game, they just want to fuck around a bit and have fun)

 

I'm pretty sure very few people will agree here, but I think the item timers they recently added in quake live are a really good compromise : They're not as precise as a HUD timer and you have to actually go check the item to see when it's going to respawn, but it makes it easier for newbies and casual players like me to get a fell of when the items are going to spawn.

 

Also I don't think removing the timer would do much good since (as already mentionned here), people would just use a clock. So it would just put those who didn't think of using a clock at a disadvantage.

 

Maybe a solution would be to somewhat randomize the item times ? Like armors could spawn between 23 and 27 seconds so you can't time it too  precisely.

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Maybe a solution would be to somewhat randomize the item times ? Like armors could spawn between 23 and 27 seconds so you can't time it too  precisely.

 

It's on the "experimental" list. The downside of it: it will completely remove the skill of having the "perfect feel" for item timings. It's a decision between gameplay vs. skill ceiling. In my opinion ..gameplay should get the + here. It also leads to another thing which can be interesting in my opinion:

 

let's say you are too far away from an item. With fixed timers you'll eventually be like: "nah, i can't get there in time, i just go somewhere else.". With random timers "maybe it spawns slightly later? worth a try..." Even if it's just to get some dmg to the enemy, so maybe MH wears off. 

 

I honestly like the idea of slightly random timers. In the end it doesn't change anything for low-level matches ....but for higher level ones, where people REALLY time to the last second.

 

I'd be all for it.

 

Regards

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time periods for item spawns are IN MY OPINION a bad idea, it will just lead to people going for an item and  camp the time variation which will slow the game for no reason and it removes that perfect timing where you steal the MH by dropping on it the second it spawns.

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adding variable respawn is a bad idea. having red armor spawn every 22-27 seconds is random, something that should stay far away from competitive settings. I understand RNG has its place in games, but in this setting I feel like it's going to be a setup for disappointment. If I know an item will spawn in 22-27 seconds, I will be there at 22 and wait for it. better to be safe than sorry. so yeah I think it will promote more camping. 

 

this whole notion of 'adding a timer slows down the game' is absurdly ridiculous, I see it said on this forum by a few people. 

 

can anyone actually prove it? can anyone actually show that adding a timer would slow down the game? I honestly think it's bullshit, it's a slippery slope with no evidence to back it up. Just because one thing happens, doesn't mean another thing will happen. If getting a gun permit is easier, will there be more murders? you can't assume one thing from another, it doesn't work. 

 

if the statement was true, that means quake live would of been faster if the timer wasn't there, correct? so all these quake games, all these UT games, all of them could of been faster if the timer was removed? so rapha-cooller ESL IEM finals would of been different if no timer existed? 

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"If I know an item will spawn in 22-27 seconds, I will be there at 22 and wait for it. better to be safe than sorry" 

 

And you think camping for a few seconds makes you safe? I think it's exactly the opposite ..you are way more vulnarable and predictable. Running around and getting an item in the perfect time is WAY safer than camping at a certain spot for several seconds.

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I'm glad this topic focused on the new netcode we put weeks of work into and didn't spiral off into the same old tired arguments about which timer system makes you the most pro.

That will only happen if someone claims that good netcode is bad for the gameplay and i'm pretty sure everyone is on the same side on that topic.

 

 

adding variable respawn is a bad idea. having red armor spawn every 22-27 seconds is random, something that should stay far away from competitive settings. I understand RNG has its place in games, but in this setting I feel like it's going to be a setup for disappointment. If I know an item will spawn in 22-27 seconds, I will be there at 22 and wait for it. better to be safe than sorry. so yeah I think it will promote more camping. 

 

Consider standing on the mega health spawn on aerowalk for 5 seconds, it's a death trap. I wouldn't do that. 

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I'm glad this topic focused on the new netcode we put weeks of work into and didn't spiral off into the same old tired arguments about which timer system makes you the most pro.

Don't feel bad.  The netcode is amazing, that's why we aren't talking about it much.  If it was horribly flawed or needing improvement we'd be bitching trust me.  The only remaining major issue with the netcode seems to be related to knockback that I can find.  It is mostly an issue for higher ping play when you are up close to someone.  Confusing stuff happens when two high ping players are trying to rocket bounce each other around up close.  Up close rocket combat is actually one thing I'm very good at and in Reflex it feels as if me and the enemy stutter around due to knock back issues.

 

I also think I've crashed my client/servers (and everyone else) when my connection goes to shit.  That seems to have improved in the latest update but I'm not sure it is gone entirely.  That isn't an easy thing to test for.  Maybe I should turn on some torrents and try playing to see what happens.

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People not talking about netcode for the first time since development started is probably a really welcomed change. :)  All the respect in the world goes to your efforts to fix it. 

 

I think all the talk about balance should be relegated to a separate topic.  Ever since Quake 1 was released there's ALWAYS been discussions about balance.  So that's just the same shit different day in a never ending debate and should be discussed elsewhere.  You could dedicate an entire forum and have a never ending debate on balance issues.  Some 30 years later and Quake is still tweaking weapon and armor.  If they couldn't ever figure it out then it's not likely something that can be figured out.  It's like playing whac-a-mole with people who complain about it.  You'll never satisfy everyone.

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