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Burstgun nerf was necessary or not?

Burstgun nerf was necessary or not?  

46 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the burstgun damage values you thought worked better?

    • Old burstgun damage value (v. 0.29.x and previous)
    • New burstgun damage value (v. 0.30.x -)


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Just looking at raw damage per second:

 

  • 0.30.x Burst: 60 dps (10*3 per 0.5 secs)
  • Bolt Rifle - 80 dps (80 per 1 sec, I think)
  • Shotgun - 96 dps (96 per 1 sec)
  • Chaingun - 100 dps (10 per 0.1 secs)
  • Ion Cannon - 105 dps (7 per 0.0667 secs, or 15 times per sec)
  • 0.29.x Burst: 108 dps (18*3 per 0.5 secs)
  • Rocket Launcher - 125 dps (100 per 0.8 secs, I think)

 

At medium ranges, Burst is harder to aim than most everything, but up close in 0.29.x it was easily better than Shotgun, Ion Cannon, and Chaingun.  It was simply too strong for a starting weapon.

 

Arguably, it was nerfed too hard, but I would strongly advise against making the starting weapon a better choice than many other weapons.  Like, sure, let it be better than Bolt Rifle.  That's good design since Bolt Rifle should only be used when you can avoid taking damage.  But better than general purpose weapons?  That's just ridiculous.

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It was pretty much perfect for duels,sure on ffa it was very spammy , but that expected,nerf was too big , now its useless weapon, 45-50 dmg would work just fine.Also when stake will be balanced? Just set it damage to 100 or more and let clan arena guys enjoy game , until u figure out what gonna do with that weapon at all...Also,can't wait plasma :)

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It is more a question of duel vs FFA/TDM/etc and what Reflex is balancing for.  For FFA/TDM the change was definitely needed.  If Reflex was a duel only game then maybe BG would be fine equal to other weapons in DPS but with a tactical niche.

 

 

now its useless weapon

I think that is hyperbole.  It is still useful.  It just doesn't allow you to dominate another player off a fresh spawn anymore; especially if you spawn close and behind them.  In FFA/TDM you are much more likely to spawn nearby players which means a strong starter weapon is an issue.

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45 dmg brustgun would be better imo. 30 dmg definitely works better than the previous 60, but its too much of a nerf. 

 

Also looking at kov's DPS chart, IC is only 5 DPS better ? Newborn should increase its firerate so that it hits significantly harder than the chaingun, because right now the chaingun can compete quite well with IC in medium range territory.

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I feel like the people saying "it was fine for duel", aren't accounting for actual game balance, and just enjoy being able to two shot some one directly off spawn.

 

Like, you say that it's a good weapon, but provide no argument for why you should spawn with such a powerful weapon.

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45 dmg brustgun would be better imo. 30 dmg definitely works better than the previous 60, but its too much of a nerf. 

 

Also looking at kov's DPS chart, IC is only 5 DPS better ? Newborn should increase its firerate so that it hits significantly harder than the chaingun, because right now the chaingun can compete quite well with IC in medium range territory.

 

Afaik chaingun will get changed back to plasma.

 

IC feels fine atm i think. Looking at the weapon itself. Problem is the RL being too useful most of the time :P.

 

Burst-Gun nerf was def. needed. I agree though that i'd need SLIGHTLY more damage. Although if ground accel is getting reduced it'll be easier to hit on close range ....and that's where the weapon is meant to perform, defensive starter close-mid range weapon. I think.

 

I'm pretty sure newborn will make sure the weapon serves it's purpose :D.

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DPS doesn't tell the whole story -- it needs to take into account accuracy. Not having accuracy stats in-game yet is one of the reasons why I'm not doing anything more than some token balancing at this point. I suspect people's accuracy is generally better in Reflex and that can change things significantly -- 100 damage bolt would be fine at 20% accuracy but horrifically overpowered at 80%. The range in Q3 was generally about 40-60% but I suspect in Reflex it's closer to 50-75%.

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I am really angry about this change. how should anybody new learn this game? there is enaugh to learn in this game.. movement, positioning, using the right weapon in the right situation, learning the spawnpoints (of each map), learning the items (on each map) learning the timing.. it's just too much.. and spawning with a useless gun is plain shit. the best part about reflex was, that newer players could atleast weaken an advantaged player by hitting good with burstgun, if they kept rushing you. Sure, spawnkilling is part of the game, but sometimes there is no way to run away, no items to reach, hiding makes no sense... and now.. you can't even weaken your enemy..fuck this.

 

Edit: And yes, on close to midrange I think burstgun should be better than boltrifle.. everybody who uses a "sniper" gun on close distance is a shithead and needs punishment. Also.. If you make chaingun to plasma, call this game CPM2 and give me my money back.

 

Edit 2: My advice is to make this game not only accessable for quake pros, but also for people from other games.. quakers will still win.. because they played quake.. but people from other games should still have the chance to get few kills.. and not get destroyed completely.. This nerf was just because some quake pro said "omg i can be first with spawngun. plx nerf to death".. i bet the only reason why he can win a public game with spawngun is the amount of experience and way more practise that he had compared to the other guys on the server.. if it was so easy to dominate with burstgun, everybody would use it all the time. if you only take quake pros opinion into account, this game will never get as big as cs or dota.

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Edit 2: My advice is to make this game not only accessable for quake pros, but also for people from other games.. quakers will still win.. because they played quake.. but people from other games should still have the chance to get few kills.. and not get destroyed completely.. This nerf was just because some quake pro said "omg i can be first with spawngun. plx nerf to death".. i bet the only reason why he can win a public game with spawngun is the amount of experience and way more practise that he had compared to the other guys on the server.. if it was so easy to dominate with burstgun, everybody would use it all the time. if you only take quake pros opinion into account, this game will never get as big as cs or dota.

 

Thats right newborn dont listen to those quakefags.... you want that dota 2 cash money  :ph34r:

 

 Guys anyone who disagrees with me is one of those nerds who plays CPMA. You should listen to us real gamers (i.e. people who DONT play quake) on the account that we dont play quake and if you listen to us your game will have more than le 20 players ;)

 

Dont forget to give me likes ~    

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Thats right newborn dont listen to those quakefags.... you want that dota 2 cash money  :ph34r:

 

 Guys anyone who disagrees with me is one of those nerds who plays CPMA. You should listen to us real gamers (i.e. people who DONT play quake) on the account that we dont play quake and if you listen to us your game will have more than le 20 players ;)

 

Dont forget to give me likes ~    

 

dude... do you even understand what i say? this game is already pretty much the same like quake.. why not take the chance and introduce the genre to a wider audience by maintaining the main features of the old games. but really.. it makes no sense to have a weapon which can't be used at any time.. in cs a glock can still win vs an m4 or awp.. in reflex this is not possible at all.. all i ask for is a spawn weapon that is a weapon which is usable to defend yourself. it should be on par with most other weapons which are in the game.

 

Edit: Even with a burstgun that can be used for defense.. Rocketlaunchers will still kill you with 1 hit.. armors and MH will still be important aswell as having a wider weapon sortiment to chose from.

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dude... do you even understand what i say? this game is already pretty much the same like quake.. why not take the chance and introduce the genre to a wider audience by maintaining the main features of the old games. but really.. it makes no sense to have a weapon which can't be used at any time.. in cs a glock can still win vs an m4 or awp.. in reflex this is not possible at all.. all i ask for is a spawn weapon that is a weapon which is usable to defend yourself. it should be on par with most other weapons which are in the game.

 

Edit: Even with a burstgun that can be used for defense.. Rocketlaunchers will still kill you with 1 hit.. armors and MH will still be important aswell as having a wider weapon sortiment to chose from.

CS isn't Quake

Quake isn't CS

*Explosions*

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dude... do you even understand what i say? this game is already pretty much the same like quake.. why not take the chance and introduce the genre to a wider audience by maintaining the main features of the old games. but really.. it makes no sense to have a weapon which can't be used at any time.. in cs a glock can still win vs an m4 or awp.. in reflex this is not possible at all.. all i ask for is a spawn weapon that is a weapon which is usable to defend yourself. it should be on par with most other weapons which are in the game.

 

Edit: Even with a burstgun that can be used for defense.. Rocketlaunchers will still kill you with 1 hit.. armors and MH will still be important aswell as having a wider weapon sortiment to chose from.

 

If you read my older posts I said I wanted the burstgun to deal more damage. My point is you should avoid using the "his opinion doesnt count because he plays quake" argument, because its basically asking everyone to treat your posts like a joke.

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Damage is too low now, the skill gap is becoming increasingly deep, reminds me of the debate on whether Halo 5 should have AR or BR starts. :P

weaker players literally get one hit every time they spawn, and can not even hope to get up to the level of the opposition. Spawns should have a decent weapon so you can at least survive to the power weapons.

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Seriously, what the fuck?

 

DM GAMES ARE ABOUT PICKING UP STUFF TO GET ADVANTAGE.

 

Thats just the core gameplay of this game, it should be made obvious to each player when they start playing. After player understands that one needs to get better weapon to actually farg someone its really no problem. You shouldnt change the core of DM which makes it great, theres modes like ARENA for player who want to just fuck off with all weapons.

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Seriously, what the fuck?

DM GAMES ARE ABOUT PICKING UP STUFF TO GET ADVANTAGE.

Thats just the core gameplay of this game, it should be made obvious to each player when they start playing. After player understands that one needs to get better weapon to actually farg someone its really no problem. You shouldnt change the core of DM which makes it great, theres modes like ARENA for player who want to just fuck off with all weapons.

You don't need to invalidate map control to stop spawn killing, the issue is right now it's next to impossible to regain a footing if someone has the power weapons, you'll probably argue it should be like that, I disagree, it's bad balance and isn't fun for anyone. Its not fun for someone with everything as they easily dominate, and it'd not fun for the victim as they cant do anything other than spawn and die.

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You don't need to invalidate map control to stop spawn killing, the issue is right now it's next to impossible to regain a footing if someone has the power weapons, you'll probably argue it should be like that, I disagree, it's bad balance and isn't fun for anyone. Its not fun for someone with everything as they easily dominate, and it'd not fun for the victim as they cant do anything other than spawn and die.

 

How long u have played dm games like quake or such? I can say playing out of control is way easier and less stressing in Reflex than what it is say in Quake Live or Quake 3. To be honest being in control in reflex aint even as rewarding as in QL, you cant really humiliate opponent the way you can in QL. Movement allows the player out of control to actually pick stuff, no matter how good job you are doing holding the map. In  some QL maps like aerowalk or dm13 you could lock your opponent totally out of any remarkable items for minutes, here you can do that barely for 30 seconds if even for that. Also as u cant force spawns with your location opponent out of control can just spawn by luck to some item like mega or ra...

 

You get that when you dont have control you dont rush to your opponent and try to kill him? Instead you +back with rocket and rail until other opponent loses position on some item and you can either block him by spamming or just steal the item straight up... Obviously if he isnt even picking the YA you are back in game just after picking YA and weapons... 

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Damage is too low now, the skill gap is becoming increasingly deep, reminds me of the debate on whether Halo 5 should have AR or BR starts. :P

weaker players literally get one hit every time they spawn, and can not even hope to get up to the level of the opposition. Spawns should have a decent weapon so you can at least survive to the power weapons.

 

You know you can delay spawns to avoid getting spawnkilled right? 

 

Also , in duel a weapon is always within reach. I cant recall ever not being able to find a weapon off spawn since they respawn so fast. You arent supposed to be attacking with that gun, its a defensive weapon. I do agree, its not very useful now, it should have some better knockback and slightly higher damage so that you can get away, but its seriously only a nightmare to play out of control if the guy you're fighting is much better than you are.

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Just looking at raw damage per second:

 

  • 0.30.x Burst: 60 dps (10*3 per 0.5 secs)
  • Bolt Rifle - 80 dps (80 per 1 sec, I think)
  • Shotgun - 96 dps (96 per 1 sec)
  • Chaingun - 100 dps (10 per 0.1 secs)
  • Ion Cannon - 105 dps (7 per 0.0667 secs, or 15 times per sec)
  • 0.29.x Burst: 108 dps (18*3 per 0.5 secs)
  • Rocket Launcher - 125 dps (100 per 0.8 secs, I think)

 

At medium ranges, Burst is harder to aim than most everything, but up close in 0.29.x it was easily better than Shotgun, Ion Cannon, and Chaingun.  It was simply too strong for a starting weapon.

 

Arguably, it was nerfed too hard, but I would strongly advise against making the starting weapon a better choice than many other weapons.  Like, sure, let it be better than Bolt Rifle.  That's good design since Bolt Rifle should only be used when you can avoid taking damage.  But better than general purpose weapons?  That's just ridiculous.

But damage per second doesn't mean a gun is better. IIRC plasma gun had the highest dps but it was balanced because it was the hardest to always hit with it. The burst gun is very hard to hit with all 3, let alone hit with all 3 all the time. I think they will end up with around 13-15 per shot and find it balanced.

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But damage per second doesn't mean a gun is better. IIRC plasma gun had the highest dps but it was balanced because it was the hardest to always hit with it. The burst gun is very hard to hit with all 3, let alone hit with all 3 all the time. I think they will end up with around 13-15 per shot and find it balanced.

Exactly!

See in my opinion power weapons should have the lowest ttk, whilst the burst gun has one of the highest.

However... it should be much harder to achieve the optimal ttk with a power weapon, whIle easy to do with the burst gun.

Just think about it... If the skill gap of the burst gun is so low the burst gun will be the best generalist weapon, a weapon anyone can sort of use, and nobody can really master. While Power weapons need skill to utilize their true potential.

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Seriously, what the fuck?

 

DM GAMES ARE ABOUT PICKING UP STUFF TO GET ADVANTAGE.

 

Thats just the core gameplay of this game, it should be made obvious to each player when they start playing. After player understands that one needs to get better weapon to actually farg someone its really no problem. You shouldnt change the core of DM which makes it great, theres modes like ARENA for player who want to just fuck off with all weapons.

 

Arena games have always been about picking stuff up. Buff the weapon either back to 60 or make it between 40-50.

Also one more thing. The game will die out if newer players get their ass whooped from people that already played cpma, ql, etcetc..

So priorities people that didn't touch the series their feedback. Of course everyone is entitled by their opinions but reflex has its chance to put more light into the arena shooter games.

And I really want to see what will happen with the game in a couple of years.

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A strong starting weapon isn't a cure all to help lower skill players vs better players.  That is a big fallacy.  It helps high skill players just as much or more.  It cuts both ways.  If you want to see id's attempt at a "newbie friendly" game play VQ3.  Even in that they did not balance out skill differences.  New players would be better served by learning the game and having match making.  Last night I helped someone learn to strafe jump to RA on THCDM13.  That is the sort of improvement that will make you appreciate Reflex, not trying to balance for skill differences.  Every game try to learn one thing if you can.  If you are fighting with the burst gun a lot you should be thinking why that is.

 

There is also always arena mode as well, don't forget!  Feel free to drop by the NA mumble and learn some tips - www.f3allready.com:64738 . I'll be on there later today.  Some of the top NA duel players hang out here too.

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The 60 dps drops off. That's two shots where all the projectiles landed. With projectile delay and spread greatly decreasing ranged damage, you're looking at pitiful damage should they choose to lg you at mid range. Most played duel maps are relatively small so you can at least pull corners with it but I would bet if you looked at stats it's dps would be lower than the quakelive mg on average.

 

The duels that happened recently in the NA cup where amazing so I guess we could sit on this for a while and see how it pans out, but then again the burstgun wasn't used much in the cup.

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