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0.32.1 - Explosion proof walls

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That's the only question that matters. Something being "too complicated" is just a matter of learning things. No one goes playing Dota2 ....to complain about Invoker having "too many" spells and it's "too complicated". Complexity is what's making games fun to play.

 

 

Yeah, I disagree:

New Player: So how often do weapons respawn?
Me: Every X seconds.
New Player: And shards and health bubbles?
Me: Every X and Y seconds.
New Player: Oh, okay. And when does Carnage respawn?
Me: That's easy. Every X seconds.
New Player: Right. And when does armor respawn?
Me: Every X seconds.
New Player: Cool, cool, I'm getting the hang of this. So mega respawns every how many seconds?
Me: ALLOW ME TO SHOW YOU MY FLOWCHART.

Complexity makes things fun to play, but complexity is more satisfying when it comes from depth of gameplay options. Chess is very simple to play, and yet very deep. It's elegant complexity. Quake has this too. It's a very simple game to learn, and the rules are very simple and intuitive, and the depth is in aim and movement and player skill and using position and the map to your advantage. The game itself gets out of your way.

 

Having complex spawn rules for the mega is trying to force a little complexity just by making the rules more complicated, and I'm not even sure what problem they're trying to fix. There was nothing wrong with mega before. I even liked not being able to pick up armors if you don't need the armor, because that's intuitive ("I have more armor than the yellow armor could give me, so of course I can't pick it up."), but the mega thing is just confusion for no reason.

 

It's inelegant complexity. It's a ten dollar solution to a fifty cent problem.

 

 

Dota2

 

This isn't Dota2. I get that it's not Quake either, but that gets us back to the whole argument about changing things just for the sake of being different, and I'm at least trying to compare apples to apples so we can stay on the mega discussion and not get off on a tangent.

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You guys are arguing on a weird matter though. Why don't you ask yourself 1 question: is the new MH helping the gameplay or not? The gameplay...in terms of: are duels more fun to play now? Does the out-of-control player have more options now?

 

That's the only question that matters. Something being "too complicated" is just a matter of learning things. No one goes playing Dota2 ....to complain about Invoker having "too many" spells and it's "too complicated". Complexity is what's making games fun to play.

 

Although i fear that RIGHT NOW, it's not obv. enough when MH starts to respawn. For new players. But then we will land at "MH timer on HUD" at some point ...and the crying begins.

 

As soon as the MH-respawn is more obvious (to new players), it'll suddenly not be complicated after a while. It's just a matter of learning something...just like they will have to learn all the movement. Suddenly the MH being "too complicated" is where we draw the line? Please....

I didn't mean that complication itself is bad, I meant the new MH is an unnecessary complication. For instance, the earlier argument that it prevents pac-manning is debatable, because MH and armors have different respawn times which brings variety to their spawn intervals and you can't pac man armors in every which order you please either. So it's really just an unnecessary complication to prevent pac-manning, but I guess Stormcrow sort of ninja'd me with that point already. 

 

I get it the new MH is supposed to force players to be on alert more, but again IMO that would only be necessary if the game didn't already have steep match awareness requirements. 

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Well, ok ..a simple question: do duels play better now? Yes or no?

 

For me: yes.

 

 

This isn't Dota2. I get that it's not Quake either, but that gets us back to the whole argument about changing things just for the sake of being different, and I'm at least trying to compare apples to apples so we can stay on the mega discussion and not get off on a tangent.

 

You just don't get my point then. Dota2 is a perfect example that people don't really bother with learning complicated stuff. In fact they appreciate it. Why shouldn't this logic apply to Reflex? Do you think they will not play Reflex, just because the MH is a bit complicated? You are simply wrong then.

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its not muh precious cpma!!! game sucks!

 

Seriously though, it's like people are complaining just because they need to learn something new. It plays a distinct sound effect when it wears off(read: when the timer starts), and all you gotta do is glance at the timer when that happens. Sure maybe it'll happen in more chaotic situations such as a heated battle, but that already happens with armor pick ups regularly.(Remember, armor pick ups play a distinct sound too!)

 

It's a new meta, and it is not as confusing as everyone is making it out to be. Imo this is just a huge over reaction to something that isn't the same crap they've been playing for a billion years.

 

The only real difference is that the guy with a 200/200 stack won't stay like that, he'll have to live with a 100/200 stack for 30 seconds in the best case scenario(excluding 5hp bubbles)

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You just don't get my point then. Dota2 is a perfect example that people don't really bother with learning complicated stuff. In fact they appreciate it. Why shouldn't this logic apply to Reflex?

 

 

Because Reflex is not Dota2. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make that. MOBAs are not FPS games, and not even all FPS games are arena shooters. I mean, Settlers of Catan has resource management, and people really like it, so why wouldn't adding resource management to Chess make it better? This is the tangent I wanted to avoid, but you insisted.

 

its not muh precious cpma!!! game sucks!

 

Seriously though, it's like people are complaining just because they need to learn something new.

 

We're complaining because it's an unnecessary change to fix a problem that's really not a problem, and it just makes the game harder to explain to people, and sticks out like a sore thumb in a game with an otherwise quite simple item spawn system.

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If the new mega system is here to stay, then may we at the least mimic the way it was in Quakeworld where it actually has some history? After losing 100 hp, make it spawn in 15-20 seconds, not 30 seconds. Why? Because in Quakeworld there was more variety in the way MH played out. There was moments when mega spawned quickly and moments where it felt like it never spawned. It also restricted/possibly punished the in-control player's options to rocket jump/self dmg. In Reflex, dealing 100dmg to someone who just picked a mega doesn't have as much significance as it had in Quakeworld. I personally think the occasional "quick megas" was the only thing that made this system worth having, current implementation is just salt to the trimmed balls in comparison.

 

its not muh precious cpma!!! game sucks!

 

Seriously though, it's like people are complaining just because they need to learn something new. It plays a distinct sound effect when it wears off(read: when the timer starts), and all you gotta do is glance at the timer when that happens. Sure maybe it'll happen in more chaotic situations such as a heated battle, but that already happens with armor pick ups regularly.(Remember, armor pick ups play a distinct sound too!)

CPMA is a fair point of reference for pretty much everything about this game. For instance, this MH system was in CPMA originally too and look where it's now, *poof* nowhere. The community didn't like it much huh, I wonder for what reason, I don't know. The way I see it, this is just an attempt to see if people might perhaps like this feature this time around.

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Just want to put in a vote in favour of the current mega health timing, or at least in favour of giving it a proper chance before abandoning it. (I don't really have a firm opinion on whether this particular system is better than the CPM one, but I definitely prefer a dynamic MH timer to a fixed one.)

 

Also, I think that calling it 'complicated' is a bit of a stretch. It can be explained in one easy sentence, and it's not at all hard to remember.

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my primary complaint right now is that the visual mega effect is obnoxious and uneccessary - the audio cues (not to mention the damage numbers) are plenty.

also i feel like this mega somewhat discourages the stated design philosophy:

"Ideally, the up player controls the RA and the down player takes the YA and MH. Depending on stacks, there is either 1 or 0 rockets difference between those loadouts - a single good shot can even things out. Which is what the down player should be looking for - that perfect, patient, predicted moment (not a lucky zerg)."

the down player gets more megas if he rushes in
the up player denies more megas from taking it if he just chills and sits on it for 99 seconds

 

with that said i find the backlash amusing, a similar system has worked for a long time and its been out for, what, 3 days or so?

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Because Reflex is not Dota2. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make that. MOBAs are not FPS games, and not even all FPS games are arena shooters. I mean, Settlers of Catan has resource management, and people really like it, so why wouldn't adding resource management to Chess make it better? This is the tangent I wanted to avoid, but you insisted.

 

Ok, either you really don't understand what i mean or you simply don't want to. I'm pretty sure everyone knows Reflex is not Dota2 ....at latest after loading up the game. My point is ....and yes...it is THAT simple:

 

People don't avoid games because they are too complicated. Point. That's it. That logic applies to Dota2 just as it can be applied to Reflex. Other example: CS:GO -> CS 1.6. Yeah yeah.... Reflex is not CS hurr durr. Still people want some complicated mechanics from 1.6 to be in CS:GO. Need another example? SC2. SC2 is complicated as fuck compared to CPMA/Q3. So? Who cares.

 

I hope i don't have to draw a picture..cuz i honestly dunno what else to explain about this little, simple statement: complicated mechanics aren't bad.

 

 

 

that's really not a problem, and it just makes the game harder to explain to people

 

Obv. there was a problem, which i can 100% relate to. Just because you don't see it as one, doesn't mean there isn't one. Harder to explain to people? Now you are just exaggerating. What so hard about "MH spawns 30 seconds after your enemy got 100dmg" ? Really. And even if....will THIS make someone not play the game?! Or 100000 other reasons? My bet goes with the 100000 other reasons.

 

Go try to explain how to play Invoker to a new moba player. "Uh..uh....you got 3 spells you have to combine in order to invoke spells, depending on the combination you have 10, that go boom boom, ah and they also grant you passive attributes. Ah..did i forget to say that with invoker you usually have a good amount of active items? so in the end you gotta be worrying about 10000000 keybinds. Congratz. You dota now." That's complicated. And not this fucking MH spawn system or the spawn system in general. If someone really thinks the item spawn-system is too complicated .... holy moly.

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