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Time to talk about the stake gun again?

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So have we simply not given the stake a fair chance, or are we seeing the future trend of this gun falling into obscurity? I believe the devs stated they want to change it some way or another, but I haven't heard much about the gun lately.

 

It's kind of sad when it doesn't even show up in either of the two dev maps, and I see very little of it in any community maps.

 

I'd still like to see it tweaked into replacing the burst gun. (even though bg is pretty cool) Significant decrease in damage and an increase in rof, and it'd always be at your disposal as a movement option.

 

I can sympathize with the few who'd like to see it replace the bolt entirely. Putting more emphasis on skilled projectiles is definitely an appealing and interesting direction. But ultimately I think the bolt is too fun give up.

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I'm kinda dissapointed that it isn't being used much. Whenever I get a chance to use it trying to predict the range and leading your shots makes it feel amazing when you hit and much more fun than using the railgun. I used to think replacing stake with rail was a bad idea, but I like it better now than I did earlier - and now nobody is using it anymore. I think if mappers gave it a shot (in the competitive maps, not just the goofy ones), it could start to pick up, but right now I dunno.

 

People have mentioned using it as a spawn weapon, but with only one shot - That sounds fairly interesting. Right now the stake gun is redundant and we need to figure out a way to make it not redundant, but this involves making changes to the bolt, removing the bolt, or merging the bolt and the stake into a compromise weapon- and of course removing the stake or changing it, I'm for all of those except removing the stake as I like it a lot. We should get more projectile weapons, and the bolt rifle is kinda lame compared to an improved stake. 

 

Making the projectile quicker (or something like that) to make it more viable compared to rail requires shooter to optimize the server-client projectile relationships- at least that's what I heard last time we were talking about the stake. If he can make client-side projectile prediction then I suppose they will be able to fix it. 

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What you could do is make it in a more accessible and less controlled area (think plasma on ZTN) so it gives the OOC player some way to pressure from afar without giving them the rail easily. 

 

You could also use it to give a route to items that doesn't involve advanced movement (but is obviously slower).

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Was the multi-hit bug ever fixed? If not, that's probably why you still don't see it in any maps.

 

Good point, I don't think that bug has been fixed yet. However there was a pretty regular slew of maps coming out prior to that bug and most of them still didn't see any stakes.

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I'm kinda dissapointed that it isn't being used much. Whenever I get a chance to use it trying to predict the range and leading your shots makes it feel amazing when you hit and much more fun than using the railgun. I used to think replacing stake with rail was a bad idea, but I like it better now than I did earlier - and now nobody is using it anymore. I think if mappers gave it a shot (in the competitive maps, not just the goofy ones), it could start to pick up, but right now I dunno.

 

People have mentioned using it as a spawn weapon, but with only one shot - That sounds fairly interesting. Right now the stake gun is redundant and we need to figure out a way to make it not redundant, but this involves making changes to the bolt, removing the bolt, or merging the bolt and the stake into a compromise weapon- and of course removing the stake or changing it, I'm for all of those except removing the stake as I like it a lot. We should get more projectile weapons, and the bolt rifle is kinda lame compared to an improved stake. 

 

Making the projectile quicker (or something like that) to make it more viable compared to rail requires shooter to optimize the server-client projectile relationships- at least that's what I heard last time we were talking about the stake. If he can make client-side projectile prediction then I suppose they will be able to fix it. 

Just saying, around build 10 bolt was a projectile with drop and the testers + devs pretty much unanimously decided it was a crappy idea. On long range it's too inconsistent and at mid/short range suicide. I get that it's insanely satisfying when you hit, but unfortunately at a competitive level it's stupid to use.

To be honest i don't really see why the stake gun should exist, i'd keep it for race mode or whatever it's going to end up being called, but other than that there is no way to make the gun useful without compromising the gameplay.

I mean really, who'd use stake gun instead of bolt unless it's forced somehow and if you have to force a gun on the player then there's something fundamentally wrong with the weapon.

Either you up the damage or make it hitscan, the first option would make it unbalanced and the second option redundant with the bolt. You could of course merge the stake gun and the bolt gun, but then again do we really need more movement options? Should we really be able to go anywhere we want on every map just because we picked up a gun?

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Just saying, around build 10 bolt was a projectile with drop and the testers + devs pretty much unanimously decided it was a crappy idea. On long range it's too inconsistent and at mid/short range suicide. I get that it's insanely satisfying when you hit, but unfortunately at a competitive level it's stupid to use.

To be honest i don't really see why the stake gun should exist, i'd keep it for race mode or whatever it's going to end up being called, but other than that there is no way to make the gun useful without compromising the gameplay.

I mean really, who'd use stake gun instead of bolt unless it's forced somehow and if you have to force a gun on the player then there's something fundamentally wrong with the weapon.

Either you up the damage or make it hitscan, the first option would make it unbalanced and the second option redundant with the bolt. You could of course merge the stake gun and the bolt gun, but then again do we really need more movement options? Should we really be able to go anywhere we want on every map just because we picked up a gun?

 

Yeah, you're right- I guess I just had the wrong idea. 

 

I really would like to see a projectile weapon in reflex that doesn't explode though, perhaps changing the chaingun into something kinda like the super nailgun? The thing is already redundant outside of spamming, and having slower moving shots would help give it a different role than "lightning gun - lite edition"

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Yeah, you're right- I guess I just had the wrong idea. 

 

I really would like to see a projectile weapon in reflex that doesn't explode though, perhaps changing the chaingun into something kinda like the super nailgun? The thing is already redundant outside of spamming, and having slower moving shots would help give it a different role than "lightning gun - lite edition"

 

Chaingun will be reverted back to a plasma afaik.

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Just saying, around build 10 bolt was a projectile with drop and the testers + devs pretty much unanimously decided it was a crappy idea. On long range it's too inconsistent and at mid/short range suicide. I get that it's insanely satisfying when you hit, but unfortunately at a competitive level it's stupid to use.

To be honest i don't really see why the stake gun should exist, i'd keep it for race mode or whatever it's going to end up being called, but other than that there is no way to make the gun useful without compromising the gameplay.

I mean really, who'd use stake gun instead of bolt unless it's forced somehow and if you have to force a gun on the player then there's something fundamentally wrong with the weapon.

Either you up the damage or make it hitscan, the first option would make it unbalanced and the second option redundant with the bolt. You could of course merge the stake gun and the bolt gun, but then again do we really need more movement options? Should we really be able to go anywhere we want on every map just because we picked up a gun?

It should exist because I'm seeing the bolt gun being used too often and too well, which decays an otherwise interesting match.

 

Furthermore you seem to be arguing about the validity of SG vs BG assuming they're on the same map.  They shouldn't be.

 

I think they were trying out the idea of adding a stake-like effect on the wall after firing the BG.

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It should exist because I'm seeing the bolt gun being used too often and too well, which decays an otherwise interesting match.

 

Furthermore you seem to be arguing about the validity of SG vs BG assuming they're on the same map.  They shouldn't be.

 

I think they were trying out the idea of adding a stake-like effect on the wall after firing the BG.

So you want to force people to use a gun they don't want to use? What's the point of that, forcing stuff like that on players always ends badly.

If you put stakegun on a map without boltgun people will either not use it at all or only to hit a lucky prediction shot, aka it will be useless.

I haven't heard anything about the combination of SG and BG, but after the HUD update releases there are supposed to be some gameplay experiments which will probably include the SG as well. If SG and BG will become one gun then it will be a hitscan SG which completely removes the idea of a projectile rifle, so to me that pretty much equals removing the gun.

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So you want to force people to use a gun they don't want to use?

Designing a map or a game is about deciding what players have available to them.  These kinds of things are up for debate if we were on the team.  But, just because players would always choose gun X over gun Y doesn't mean it's some kind of rationale for its existence over something else.  It could well be the opposite.

 

What if there was a super BG and a BG.  The super BG is 300 damage.  Why force them to use the lame BG instead of the Super BG?

 

I don't believe the Stake Gun is balanced properly yet.  I'm actually more anti-bolt, than pro-stake.

 

Further some maps are good with the Bolt.  DP4.  BDM3, not so much.

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Designing a map or a game is about deciding what players have available to them.  These kinds of things are up for debate if we were on the team.  But, just because players would always choose gun X over gun Y doesn't mean it's some kind of rationale for its existence over something else.  It could well be the opposite.

 

What if there was a super BG and a BG.  The super BG is 300 damage.  Why force them to use the lame BG instead of the Super BG?

 

I don't believe the Stake Gun is balanced properly yet.  I'm actually more anti-bolt, than pro-stake.

 

Further some maps are good with the Bolt.  DP4.  BDM3, not so much.

A 300 damage BG would be overpowered, standard BG isn't. Stake gun is going to either be underpowered (like it is now, hence nobody wants to use it) in every situation or a gamble nobody would be willing to take.

What's wrong with BG? It promotes +back a little bit more than in CPMA, but i never really deemed that a problem. Especially not on BDM3.

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A 300 damage BG would be overpowered, standard BG isn't. Stake gun is going to either be underpowered (like it is now, hence nobody wants to use it) in every situation or a gamble nobody would be willing to take.

What's wrong with BG? It promotes +back a little bit more than in CPMA, but i never really deemed that a problem. Especially not on BDM3.

In context nothing is wrong with the BG.  I don't want to write too much about it, but basically I think (as I have said before) it fosters a kind of gameplay I am personally not a fan of; and rewards skills that I personally have no interest in putting on a pedestal.

 

For example, I would enjoy watching high level BDM3 matches more without the BG than with the BG.  Not so with DP4.  As a counter-example I might like watching high level matches with stake and no bolt on BDM3 better than without stake and without BG, but it's hard to say at this point.

 

The stake might be a good alternative, where the bolt seems to add nothing interesting to a map.  Same for smaller, see everywhere all the time, maps.

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If you put stakegun on a map without boltgun people will either not use it at all or only to hit a lucky prediction shot, aka it will be useless.

 

 

I think it's very foolish to assume the use of stakes would only culminate lucky shots. If the gun was actually used regularly you'd see player skill and accuracy with it go up quite a bit. Changes to ROF, damage, and projectile speed could go a long way in making the gun more consistent/viable as well.

 

Like I said previously, replacing bolt with stakes would definitely be interesting, but I don't think it's the way to go. And I think it'd be even worse to marginalize it a per map basis replacement.

 

In that line of thought I think the bolt vs stake argument is pointless. Bolt isn't going anywhere.

 

I think the best bet for the gun is either heavily tweaking values to replace the starting gun, or adding some sort of extra interaction to stakes so that it can find some sort of utility.(nades/plasma being suppressive area denial, shotgun close range burst, lg being close-mid range sustained as examples.)

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I think I recall the devs mentioning that the stake projectile is already moving about as fast as it can. Simply not a gun I'm interested in using for combat, but I'd like to see it rethought as a movement weapon. I don't get all the complaints about the railboltgun personally. Why are we punishing aim? It's supposed to be good at long range, and your best defense against rail is good positioning. When rox and ion-LG-thing are balanced I think it'll be fine.

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In that line of thought I think the bolt vs stake argument is pointless. Bolt isn't going anywhere.

 

I think the best bet for the gun is either heavily tweaking values to replace the starting gun, or adding some sort of extra interaction to stakes so that it can find some sort of utility.(nades/plasma being suppressive area denial, shotgun close range burst, lg being close-mid range sustained as examples.)

I don't agree that they should not be compared.  Any map maker can make it go away just like that, same with any gun, thus comparing them is actually relevant, potentially.

 

I've been thinking of stake gun utility today actually.  I have a few ideas, but it would be yelling into a void.  I think upped damage would be the first change to try.  Probably already has.

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It's a clever idea for a movement tool and I think you can make really interesting map decisions with it. (I'm working on something) 

 

As a weapon, I think we should treat it as a replacement for BFG rather than rail/bolt. On top of damage being increased a little and the multihit bug fixed, maybe it should have some other properties... Like maybe it could have special effect on armor protection status, turn every form of damage to 1:1 or something clever like that.

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It's a clever idea for a movement tool and I think you can make really interesting map decisions with it. (I'm working on something) 

 

As a weapon, I think we should treat it as a replacement for BFG rather than rail/bolt. On top of damage being increased a little and the multihit bug fixed, maybe it should have some other properties... Like maybe it could have special effect on armor protection status, turn every form of damage to 1:1 or something clever like that.

 

Edit:

 

Analyzing some data I gathered manually from matches on youtube I think starting stake at 2x rail damage (160) is a good starting point for viability, then work your way down if necessary.  But I think they have no interest in the stake whatsoever so.

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Wait, so there isn't  going to be a machine gun / minigun? I would rather keep it.

 

It's kind of pointless atm. I think a projectile better serves the suppression role the gun is meant to have. The weapon as is just kind of sits in a weird over lap.

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