Jump to content
newborn

Welcome to our new UI subforum.

Recommended Posts

 

Has newborn confirmed that players would need to trigger the items timer with a button?

if the ui scripting is as powerful as i imagine, i'm pretty sure you could just compare health and armor values between two snapshots and easily make the itemtimer automatic for when you pick the items up yourself. mh timing after enemy pickup might also be possible with that soundfile playing at wearoff.

 

my opinion on hud item timers:

  • not very useful in duel. i dont consider myself a duel player, but i do play some duel. in ql, i can easily time 2 items. in cpm its not possible due to the way the timer works. in reflex, i dont do it either. im pretty sure, due to the way reflex gameplay works, compared to ql, that it is not that much an advantage.
  • in tdm, sure its useful. yeah new player will have it down quicker. but if you have atleast 3 guys on the same team who know how to do it in their head, you're going to know when the items are coming anyway. the only thing i can imagine going wrong with hud timers, is that both teams will just have a countdown list of which item to rush next. can't tell how that will play out tho.
  • i imagine a hud timer might be similar to the minimap in other games: 'its there, its useful, but i forgot to look again'. on the same note, i hope countdown timers are forbidden :). a single time, like :23 would atleast force the player to pay attention to gametime.
  • the scripting may be open now, but that might change. maybe at some point huds have to be approved. or the game has a public mode, similar to cs:go, where item timers are on, and a competitive mode, with stricter settings.

 

I was of the understanding that the armor timers would be automated.  Right? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was of the understanding that the armor timers would be automated.  Right? 

 

The message I got was that no, they won't be completely automated. Dansen is probably right that you could automate it for your own pickups, but I think the idea is that at least for opponent pickups you'll need to press a button manually to start the timer. Most people seem to be assuming the opposite, so I'll see if I can find the post that led me to believe this.

 

edit: this one:

 

It'd be via the keybinds. The UI system won't have any knowledge of enemy actions or sounds being played for obvious reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The message I got was that no, they won't be completely automated. Dansen is probably right that you could automate it for your own pickups, but I think the idea is that at least for opponent pickups you'll need to press a button manually to start the timer. Most people seem to be assuming the opposite, so I'll see if I can find the post that led me to believe this.

 

edit: this one:

 

That's not actually quite what I meant -- I meant that if people were going to time enemy items, it would have to be done via keybinds (because the other option they gave of listening for sounds involves stuff the UI knows nothing about). Initially, we're just going to auto time all the armors (but not mega) and see what the impact is. If it's looking like its worth the effort of slowly locking down timers, we'll do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Me and b1z talked about the ui and other effected things yesterday evening Live you guys might like to take a look ;)  - http://phgp.tv/media/state-reflex-1-part-1/( UI stuff & Matchmaking starts at 35:00 ) 

First of all, wow.  You put out a shit ton of content.  Impressive stuff.

 

Watching your video up there I've noticed you may be in error.  In your commentary I think you've got the execution of the hud item timers incorrect.  The armors are automatically timed for all players, no contingencies.  MH stands as is, no changes.  Evidently the armor time mechanism will be triggered (in code) by the sound that plays (flagged) when they are picked up.  (?)

 

Many things may trigger the armor reset, but the sound seems as if it would be the easiest as it's already in there.  Keep in mind I know fuck all of that scripting language, and I could be talking out of my ass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone else remember when the homepage had "No dumbing down, no compromises!" listed as one of five selling points? I notice they've long since removed it... 

 

that's pretty funny 

 

So the argument is that either we get timers, or timers are removed at the expense of a robust scripting system? 

 

I hate the people arguing that it's easy to time items. Anyone who says this is completely ignorant of what it takes to be a good player, because any idiot can add numbers. The point is you're handling a lot of information at once, including numbers. This isn't a math test. Of course it's easy to add or subtract numbers, that's not the point. 

 

I keep arguing to myself whether it's good or bad, and I always think of high level duels I saw in Quake, especially with trickier players like Cooller. Fantastic situations where a game starts on ZTN and he either delays the first red he gets, or the second. I've seen tons of these situations, DM6 was a big one. Smart players would delay getting red right after a frag, because you knew that player would assume you got it, and time it based off that number. This resulted in the other player showing up for red, but being there early. This lets the other player go there, frag him, and take the red he delayed beforehand. 

 

If I'm understanding things correctly, the current hud timers destroy any change of that happening. The other player would know he delayed it, and would have adjusted his plan accordingly. Even before that, the original player would have delayed the red in the first place, since he knows the other player would see the time on his hud. 

 

This are the small, minute, high level 'classic' moments I think of when I see hud timers. Yet you have completely inexperienced players who haven't played anything seriously in their entire life arguing 'well it's easy to add numbers, a third grader can do it'. 

 

I'd normally like to offer a suggestion, but I can't think of any. Global sounds? I mean, at what point do you make information global and not global? Me struggling to know when the red armor comes up is a result of my opponent playing a good game, not the result from a broken or misunderstood gameplay element. 

 

I'm even fine with drawing item timers if there was an easy server flag you could set so competitive or matchmaking servers could disallow it, but it sounds like that might be a mess scripting wise. 

 

I was super jacked about reflex again after seeing the gui update, I kind of took a break for a while. Seeing something like a hud timer just makes me sad. I was a high level Quake player, and it just makes me think duels will become somewhat vapid with changes like this. Suddenly I don't need to get into a proper, maybe risky position to hear/see a red armor pickup because I'm out of control. I can be across the map and have every knowledge of what major items were picked up, and when they will be up again. 

Correct me if I'm wrong about my interpretation, but that's just my feelings. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand it's alpha, I understand new stuff needs to be tried, I understand all that. Displaying item respawn timers for all players to see on the hud kills a huge amount of strategy involved in this game. This is a joke honestly, I was nice in the first post but I just played five minutes of FFA before realizing this is beyond stupid. You make a game that involves one of the most complex movement systems in FPS history, yet you display when a red armor was picked up? You put double-stair-circle-jumps in, and now I can be on the complete opposite side of the map and know when every armor comes up? I can't try to understand the other side anymore, I tried but it doesn't make any sense. I get you need to try things out, but creating a hardcore arena fps game that shows item respawn timers on the hud is kind of hilarious, only in an ironic sense though. Like selling me fat free ice cream with the notion that it's healthy, when there's lots of sugar in it. If you're concerned about being healthy, why are you selling ice cream

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeing something like a hud timer just makes me sad. I was a high level Quake player, and it just makes me think duels will become somewhat vapid with changes like this.

 

If all of the difficulty in dueling was in timing items, then maybe dueling wasn't that fun to begin with. I'd like to believe there's more to arena shooters than doing math modulo 25. This is also getting a bit into the whole "Dueling is the game" fallacy, which has always irritated the fuck out of me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If all of the difficulty in dueling was in timing items, then maybe dueling wasn't that fun to begin with.

 

no one says that is, just you. why bring this up. no one is saying this.

 

 

I'd like to believe there's more to arena shooters than doing math modulo 25.

 

once again, the classic 'doing math is easy'. your ignorance doesn't help man, any high level player can explain how a huge chunk of strategy is removed by showing item timers. it's your fault for failing to understand something like this.

 

This is also getting a bit into the whole "Dueling is the game" fallacy, which has always irritated the fuck out of me.

 

Once again, no one said it's the game. We're talking about removing a gameplay element that adds strategy to the game.

 

please, continue on with the illogical fallacies. it's hilarious to see casuals trying to act like high level dueling with item timing is like throwing a rock and adding numbers. stop acting like something you don't understand is something that is minimal in terms of strategy, I'm so tired of reading pure ignorance posted here with no one calling out these idiots for posting this garbage. if you're a bad player, maybe you're the last person who should be giving an opinion about strategy involved for duel at a high level of skill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 This is also getting a bit into the whole "Dueling is the game" fallacy, which has always irritated the fuck out of me.

 

Timing items is a feature in all competitive gamemodes. This isn't just about dueling, it affects TDM and CTF as well. I know he doesnt mention it in his post, but you should keep in mind that this affects all the modes except clan arena. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Timing items is a feature in all competitive gamemodes. This isn't just about dueling, it affects TDM and CTF as well. I know he doesnt mention it in his post, but you should keep in mind that this affects all the modes except clan arena. 

 

Agree, most of the arguments I read on this forum only addressed duels specifically so I gave a couple of examples in this post about how team modes are affected:  Frankly, the only opinion I trust from the camp saying the timing feature might be good for gameplay is Kovaak's, since he was a top-level QW dueler. However, IIRC he was only referring to duels and hadn't thought through the impact on team modes?

 

Anyway, when I wrote that post I was under the impression that the timers wouldn't be fully automated, instead they would at least require a button press to start a countdown per item. That made it semi-tolerable (without trying it), but it sounds like that has since changed and now everything is auto-timed for you? I guess I'll have to give it a shot this weekend  :wacko: There really is a ton of strategy and decision making related to timing that isn't obvious at lower skill levels, and I'm fearful that this aspect of what IMO makes competitive QW awesome won't be present in Reflex.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, probably time for another official post about this since the timers are now out there for players to use and once again, the discussion is getting increasingly aggressive.

 

So, I've played and watched a bunch of games using the new timers. Not as many as I'd like, but I'm definitely forming an idea of the impact it has on gameplay. Generally, things seem slightly improved in low and medium skilled games (although truly low skill games pretty much don't exist in Reflex right now). There are less uncontested items and combat is pushed towards more interesting areas. I've definitely seen players who haven't adjusted yet -- either forgetting that the timers are there or not adjusting their style to compensate through positioning / denial / countering denial / punishing 0 second pickups. 

 

This probably sounds like I've decided to keep them, but that's not true, so save the rage. Community opinion will definitely play a role in the decision but for now, it's barely been 24 hours. There's always an immediate, knee jerk reaction to changes like this, especially if it's something that people have been exploiting. When CPMA reduced the rail damage from 100 to 80, there was a flood of angry tears and threats to never play again, mostly from people whose primary strategy involved "Get one frag, then rail fuck people off spawn 15 times". A couple of weeks later, I don't think there were a lot of people left who didn't accept that the change didn't greatly improve the game. 

 

If you want to see Reflex become more than a CPMA clone, you have to genuinely give changes a chance and think about more than just your own score in a match. To be blunt, some of the experimental changes that I was quite excited about, I'm now left feeling a bit like I can't be fucked with. The insta-rage because something is different, before anyone has even played it, or only played it once.. that's pretty draining. But testing changes like these is absolutely the only way to move forward from current arena shooters. There is simply no progress without testing and experimentation.

 

So for now, I'm going back to watching how things play out and giving people a chance to adjust their playstyle, as well as watching how it impacts my own. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When CPMA reduced the rail damage from 100 to 80, there was a flood of angry tears and threats to never play again, mostly from people whose primary strategy involved "Get one frag, then rail fuck people off spawn 15 times". A couple of weeks later, I don't think there were a lot of people left who didn't accept that the change didn't greatly improve the game. 

 

Your comparison isn't equal, changing one weapons damage is in no way a fair comparison to now giving all players exact armor and powerup timings. It's like saying "well you guys whined about increasing X weapon damage, so of course you'll whine about being able to see enemies at all times". The two aren't even close to comparable, so lets move on from that unfair comparison.
 

 

Alright, probably time for another official post about this since the timers are now out there for players to use and once again, the discussion is getting increasingly aggressive.

 

There's always an immediate, knee jerk reaction to changes like this, especially if it's something that people have been exploiting. 

 

The insta-rage because something is different, before anyone has even played it, or only played it once.. that's pretty draining. 

 

- railgun damage change example, insta rage from people who benefitted from it, after it settled down it became obvious that it was a huge improvement to the game

 

I like how the only way you justify the other side of the argument is "well you're going to get angry anyways, and things change, so it happens". Forget you made game modes completely vapid, forget that high level games involved high levels of timing strategies, forget all that. Just blame us, blame us for raging against 'any changes that will be made', and justify it with 'you have to be open to new ideas'. 

 

This is why people get upset and 'aggressive' as you so put it, because when valid concerns are brought up, little argument is made on the other side. No one here is actively trying to justify playing an arguably dumber game, other than insulting us (by saying math is easy) or insinuating we want something that we never wanted ("duel shouldn't be about math, it should be about shooting") 

 

It makes the game feel vapid. I'm apologize, I am a player that likes to use his brain when he plays, to create strategies around major item pickups, weapons, things of that nature. There is no "mystery" anymore, I can't steal another teams red armors in a mode like CTF. In some maps in Q3 it respawned every minute, and guess what? A smart, skillful player can steal that item and control it from the other team. 

 

You killed skillful, rewarding play with updates like this. This is far from changing rail or rockets, that's completely and 100% different. At least if rockets did 200 damage, there would still be a brain game to this. 

 

Once again, I understand stuff has to be tried, and I am in no way expecting this to be set in stone. I'm just trying to voice an opinion, and also understand the other side. Unfortunately, the other side hasn't said much other than what I mentioned above (easy, math, boring). All indicative of unskilled players. Would you talk to a casual basketball player about changing the rules for all of basketball? To say timing is easy and boring is ignorance, not valid criticism. 

 

edit: to give more actual opinion on the changes, playing any mode removed any 'mystery' going on with the map. no longer did I have to think when red, yellow, mega, or any powerup was spawning. FFA no longer had me guessing when Red was up, I just checked my hud with ease and showed up every time. Playing duel was extremely vapid, there was strategies based around timing items, delaying armors, etc. No longer is that the case, everything is presented there. Wonder if he skipped red at spawn to grab a weapon and went back? Wonder no more, it's all on your HUD. It felt like duel was two steps away from being Clan Arena. You already showed me all the item spawns, you might as well start giving me all the weapons. It feels extremely shallow now, no mystery. No wonder, none at all. No thought of "i wonder when...". SO maybe you helped the lower level games, that's great, but you just killed a huge chunk of enjoyment and fun involved in higher level games across all modes, TDM, CTF, and duel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I disagree with 100% automated item timers (i still think you should have to manually activate timers!) I think it is absolutely worth waiting it out for a week or two, and playing as many games as you can to see how this affects the game.

 

I would expect you to place a little bit more trust in newborn and the other devs - they've know what the heck they're doing! if at the end of the week people are STILL against this, expect it to change; don't ask them to stagnate the development of the game because you were unwilling to experiment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your comparison isn't equal, changing one weapons damage is in no way a fair comparison to now giving all players exact armor and powerup timings. It's like saying "well you guys whined about increasing X weapon damage, so of course you'll whine about being able to see enemies at all times". The two aren't even close to comparable, so lets move on from that unfair comparison.

It absolutely is a fair comparison. The change to railgun damage had a *huge* effect on the overall gameplay. There was an extremely strong meta game of "kill someone and spawn rape with rail" that would absolutely be the deciding skill in a lot of games. There was a lot of resistance to the change on paper, before it happened. There was a lot of resistance against the change in the week or two following the release. Then players adjusted the way they played, using rockets for spawn frags, focusing on other skills besides spawn frags etc. The brutal truth is that *any* change to the game is always met with some degree of both support and resistance -- we've even had some resistance from people because we've started to add environment art. The reality is, until the scene adjusts to the timers, it's extremely poor design to make a call about their overall impact on the game. If I were to make design calls based purely on "this person on the forum is angry", then you can consider the game complete right now.

 

I like how the only way you justify the other side of the argument is "well you're going to get angry anyways, and things change, so it happens". Forget you made game modes completely vapid, forget that high level games involved high levels of timing strategies, forget all that. Just blame us, blame us for raging against 'any changes that will be made', and justify it with 'you have to be open to new ideas'.

I like you how talk like your views are 100% supported by the scene. You're completely aware they're not, because you submit moderator reports against everyone who disagrees with you.

 

This is why people get upset and 'aggressive' as you so put it, because when valid concerns are brought up, little argument is made on the other side. No one here is actively trying to justify playing an arguably dumber game, other than insulting us (by saying math is easy) or insinuating we want something that we never wanted ("duel shouldn't be about math, it should be about shooting")

You've missed plenty of discussion then. Some in other threads, some on servers, some on streams, some on IRC. There have been many arguments made both for and against the timers. If you don't want people to be dismissive, step one might be to post in a thread where it isn't off topic.

 

It makes the game feel vapid. I'm apologize, I am a player that likes to use his brain when he plays, to create strategies around major item pickups, weapons, things of that nature. There is no "mystery" anymore, I can't steal another teams red armors in a mode like CTF. In some maps in Q3 it respawned every minute, and guess what? A smart, skillful player can steal that item and control it from the other team.

Well no, you can't steal another teams armor in CTF, because we don't have a CTF mode. When we *do* have a CTF mode, you won't actually get timers for any armors in their base anyway. But lets ignore that assumption of yours and for the sake of argument, say that you *could* see timers for enemy armors. How exactly does that make you unable to steal them? The only real difference is that you're less likely to be able to just walk in and pick up an uncontested enemy armor. So, instead of an armor going to a single player (repeatedly) due to clock timing and pickup obfuscation, the armor will most likely go to whoever has the better aim, movement and positioning for that encounter (or in team games, who is actually working as a team to control the item, ensuring that combat is 2v1 in their favour).

 

You killed skillful, rewarding play with updates like this. This is far from changing rail or rockets, that's completely and 100% different. At least if rockets did 200 damage, there would still be a brain game to this.

 

That's an extremely simplistic view on gameplay that assumes every bit of gameplay is modular and has zero impact on the rest of the game. If we did actually make rockets do 200 damage, the entire concept of weapon selection based on range, personal skill and position would be removed because RL would easily be the dominant weapon by far. It would make green armor almost entirely useless. It would make MegaHealth almost entirely useless. You'd lose far more "brain game" to the fact that there was only 2 items worth picking up left in the game: RA and RL. 

Once again, I understand stuff has to be tried, and I am in no way expecting this to be set in stone. I'm just trying to voice an opinion, and also understand the other side. Unfortunately, the other side hasn't said much other than what I mentioned above (easy, math, boring). All indicative of unskilled players. Would you talk to a casual basketball player about changing the rules for all of basketball? To say timing is easy and boring is ignorance, not valid criticism.

Well, even if it *is* indicative of unskilled players, those players are still entitled to their opinions and may find the game more enjoyable with timers. If you want, you can consider people saying "easy, math, boring" etc as "lower skill players approve of the change and find the game more interesting because of it".

edit: to give more actual opinion on the changes, playing any mode removed any 'mystery' going on with the map. no longer did I have to think when red, yellow, mega, or any powerup was spawning. FFA no longer had me guessing when Red was up, I just checked my hud with ease and showed up every time. Playing duel was extremely vapid, there was strategies based around timing items, delaying armors, etc. No longer is that the case, everything is presented there. Wonder if he skipped red at spawn to grab a weapon and went back? Wonder no more, it's all on your HUD. It felt like duel was two steps away from being Clan Arena. You already showed me all the item spawns, you might as well start giving me all the weapons. It feels extremely shallow now, no mystery. No wonder, none at all. No thought of "i wonder when...". SO maybe you helped the lower level games, that's great, but you just killed a huge chunk of enjoyment and fun involved in higher level games across all modes, TDM, CTF, and duel.

I haven't played the changes as much as I'd like to yet since I've been busy with dev stuff, but from the games I've played: I didn't really find that I "didn't have to think" about when items were spawning, I found I just didn't need to hold the value in my mind. In my first few games, I definitely relied on the timers too much, immediately discarding everything I learned about timing over the years. But my play vastly improved when I *did* still bother to keep the spawn order and offsets in mind. It was *much* easier to focus on the game, get myself into position, move to the next position etc when I did it by "feel" and only used the seconds for precise denial attempts/counters. It was sort of like the difference between "driving by minimap" vs "actually knowing where you're going" in a game like GTA -- the increased focus on what you're actually doing is a huge advantage.

I also found myself adapting my play to the timers. I was far more likely to contest an armor with the precise timing there. I found myself weighing up the value of diving an armor, knowing that I'd probably die for the denial. I found myself punishing players who went for the obvious 0 second pickup, making sure there was a rocket or bolt waiting for them. I found myself defending a YA for 10 seconds until he bailed and went for the RA (probably fearing I'd respawn on it), allowing me to pick it up at exactly the same time as he took the RA, denying the full armor pacman run he'd built up (since it was now impossible for him to get both the RA and YA one after the other). All of that meta might have already been available to the top 1% of players, but personally I'm enjoying having it in my skill range (which would probably be mid/upper-mid).

But no, I didn't find myself thinking "I wonder when the RA is spawning" -- but I never really found myself wondering that before, unless I was really out of control. The fact that you can hear the armor pickups from almost anywhere on the map doesn't leave a lot of mystery. Same deal with skipping an armor to grab a weapon and going back.. I would have just heard that anyway. Unless most players enemy awareness is *way* below what I assumed it was, those unknowns shouldn't really exist in even mid level play.

Instead, I found myself on THCT1 with low health but nicely positioned in the RA alcove for the spawn in 5 seconds. I didn't need to check my HUD to know my enemy had picked up the YA, I'd already heard it. But I hadn't heard him since. So I wondered if he noobed up and didn't check the RA time. I wondered if he decided not to contest it -- maybe his health was lower than I thought, or he was out of ammo? I did glance at my timers to see what other items he might be going for but he would have been way early for a MH pickup. So I wondered if he'd snuck around to the top platform without me hearing. I wondered if he was going to try for a denial or sacrifice the RA for an easy kill when I stepped out for the RA at 0 seconds. I knew I didn't have the health to peek out and check because a rocket anywhere near me was going to kill me, losing both the frag and the item. With 1 second left on the respawn timer, I heard him jump for it and ducked round the corner for a midair rocket, knocking him down to the floor and only taking a tiny bit of damage. I took the RA and jumped over to the ledge, killing his line of sight and giving me a good position on the MH that I desperately needed. I checked my HUD again and guessed that I probably had time to grab the 50H at YA before moving to mega, but I wasnt 100% sure it was up. I peeked out over the ledge to see where he was, but he was laying low until the MH was closer to spawning, so I couldn't harass him away. In the end, I opted to try for a 0 second denial but it was the wrong call -- he finished me off before I even hit the ground and took the MH no problem.

This is the new timing meta. This is the stuff that is going to take more than one game to figure out. This is what I'm waiting to see come together before I make a call on timers staying or going. If it turns out that the new strategies don't play nearly as well, timers will be scrapped. If they play slightly worse at high level but far better at mid and low levels, they'll probably stay. If they play better across all skills, then it's nothink.

But until I've seen what those strategies are, or lost all hope of any developing, I'm not making a call on timers. And would you really want me to approach the gameplay design differently?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I disagree with 100% automated item timers (i still think you should have to manually activate timers!) I think it is absolutely worth waiting it out for a week or two, and playing as many games as you can to see how this affects the game.

 

I would expect you to place a little bit more trust in newborn and the other devs - they've know what the heck they're doing! if at the end of the week people are STILL against this, expect it to change; don't ask them to stagnate the development of the game because you were unwilling to experiment.

 

Yeah, I also currently 100% disagree (without having tried it yet), but Newborn's responses have been reasonable so there's no real harm in giving the change a try for a couple weeks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But lets ignore that assumption of yours and for the sake of argument, say that you *could* see timers for enemy armors. How exactly does that make you unable to steal them? The only real difference is that you're less likely to be able to just walk in and pick up an uncontested enemy armor. 

 

How does it make me unable to steal them? Obviously because they know when it's going to respawn. The whole point of stealing the red and hoping no one saw/heard was because I can likely do it again, they are unaware of the time that red respawns, because I was able to steal it in a situation before. 

 

I can't keep that going because they know exactly when its up. When it was stolen, they lost track of the timing, they have no idea when I took it. Since it respawns every minute, they have less chances to see when it comes up, especially if pressure is applied in that area when their red respawns. The whole point of taking red and marking the time was to keep it away from them. They're unable to know when I took it, which means they now have to fight and work around knowing that red respawn time, by staying closer to it and guarding it when it does finally come up. 

 

 

So, instead of an armor going to a single player (repeatedly) due to clock timing and pickup obfuscation, the armor will most likely go to whoever has the better aim, movement and positioning for that encounter (or in team games, who is actually working as a team to control the item, ensuring that combat is 2v1 in their favour)

 

Except your forgetting one important element, it was their teams responsibility to keep track of red. Our team should have not had the chance to take it in the first place, it was a mistake on their part to allow us to take it at all. 

 

If item respawn times are there, that other team no longer has to work or put in any effort to keep track of red. It doesn't matter that we played smart, anticipated the respawn time, arrived early, and took it without them knowing what time it respawns. 

 

The same thing applies to duel, so much brain play revolves around armors and mh. Before you were punished for not remembering when you picked up an armor, now you don't even need to do the math, let alone remember. Tense situation and you forgot when mh was spawning? Why is this such a bad thing? Why is the skill ceiling lowered because of small issues people can't handle? I don't want to see my opponents cards in hand and play off of that, I want his cards to remain unknown and play my cards. 

 

For some people, not knowing when red armor spawns is axiety inducing. For others, it's the entire point of the game. I enjoy deep, skillful, challenging fps games, and not just in aim. 

 

also I will stfu about this subject and leave it alone for now and enjoy your game  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the timers please keep them. Call me noob I don't care. Permanent calculation while playing just fucks my brain. I always hated that. Now I can just play and focus on other things. If you revert you remove timers in future.. I won't like it but I guess I will have to adjust then..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i dont want to write alot about the timer topic, ive made a post a few pages back where i mostly said i would agree with adding them. after a couple of games thats changed tho.

i mostly agree with what tosspot has said but theres one thing i have to add:

 

GETTING an item really doesnt feel like an accomplishment anymore.

i stand on the spawnlocation, check timers.. aha, 2 seconds... got it.

 

timing by feeling like in cpm duel, you always get this little feeling of accomplishment, or whatever you want to call it after picking up an ra.

timing by clock, like in ql, or cpm tdm. you still had to do something. or you got mixed up. and who the hell can memorize more then 2 items in a duel :D

but if youve ever gone 10 minutes and had constand awareness about when a couple of items spawned, that was good.

 

and i really dislike all the comments how its just calculatiing, and its easy anyway. i really bet whoever talks like that doesnt know how to do it. heck, a month ago in the ql draft tournament i was in a team with a guy who was quite good at tdm but for some reason told us on ts that he cannot time items.

 

also, in reflex duel, really, dont calculate, you dont have to. its not ql duel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×