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TosspotMeBro, for all of your complaints about there being no mystery around item times in Reflex, why weren't you around earlier complaining about global sounds?  Before item timers were available, every single item pickup sound was broadcast throughout the entire game, and each armor type makes a different sound.  To a high level player, there never was any mystery about item timings in Reflex.

 

Still, with there being no item timing mystery, there was (and still is) plenty of interesting high level play in Reflex.  In my opinion, high level play isn't about an awareness of which item comes up next.  It's about:

  • Making the right choices that give you the advantage in fights.
  • Getting the right positioning to do the damage you need to do.
  • Setting up traps for your opponent when you know what he will be doing.
  • Baiting your opponent into fights where you can stand to take seemingly unfavorable amounts of damage.
  • Reading your opponent's intentions and cutting off his good choices.
  • Avoiding your opponent when he's stacked and no important items are coming up soon.
  • And so on.

Timing items has always been a barrier to entry to this sort of stuff, but it's not the be-all and end-all of strategy in competitive FPS games. 

 

I played the Reflex for the first time in about 2 months last night, and after I adjusted my UI to something more familiar, I was having quite a lot of fun.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  Item timers (in duel) don't change anything significant for the skill ceiling.  It raises the skill floor, which is exactly what this genre needs to get more players involved.

 

As far as other game modes go, I honestly couldn't comment yet.  There hasn't been any serious competitive 4on4 before or after the item timer change, and CTF isn't a game mode yet.  FFA and CA are training grounds/casual modes, as far as I'm concerned.  When more serious team competition comes into play, I'm sure there will be more discussion on the topic.

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TosspotMeBro, for all of your complaints about there being no mystery around item times in Reflex, why weren't you around earlier complaining about global sounds?  Before item timers were available, every single item pickup sound was broadcast throughout the entire game, and each armor type makes a different sound.  To a high level player, there never was any mystery about item timings in Reflex.

 

Still, with there being no item timing mystery, there was (and still is) plenty of interesting high level play in Reflex.  In my opinion, high level play isn't about an awareness of which item comes up next.  It's about:

  • Making the right choices that give you the advantage in fights.
  • Getting the right positioning to do the damage you need to do.
  • Setting up traps for your opponent when you know what he will be doing.
  • Baiting your opponent into fights where you can stand to take seemingly unfavorable amounts of damage.
  • Reading your opponent's intentions and cutting off his good choices.
  • Avoiding your opponent when he's stacked and no important items are coming up soon.
  • And so on.

Timing items has always been a barrier to entry to this sort of stuff, but it's not the be-all and end-all of strategy in competitive FPS games. 

 

I played the Reflex for the first time in about 2 months last night, and after I adjusted my UI to something more familiar, I was having quite a lot of fun.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  Item timers (in duel) don't change anything significant for the skill ceiling.  It raises the skill floor, which is exactly what this genre needs to get more players involved.

 

As far as other game modes go, I honestly couldn't comment yet.  There hasn't been any serious competitive 4on4 before or after the item timer change, and CTF isn't a game mode yet.  FFA and CA are training grounds/casual modes, as far as I'm concerned.  When more serious team competition comes into play, I'm sure there will be more discussion on the topic.

 

the barrier-to-entry issues should be solved by having the hud time it for you, not give you global powerup information. things change and nothing is permanent, I understand that. Also in the situations you described, a lot of those can be heavily more complex based on not knowing item timings, things like positioning yourself for a powerup. You run a risk of showing up early or late, if you're not aware of the respawn time. Situations like this are heavily diminished due to both players knowing the time it respawns. Before you had to have some form of information, or take an educated risk. Personally for me, a lot of this gets watered down when you present that information on the hud.

 

I didn't know about global sounds personally, I know it was there for mega which I don't mind. global sounds for armors is different though, is that how it is now? I took a break from this and only recently came back.

 

I agree timing can suck for some people, but that's part of the journey to being a better player. Like getting better at aiming, positioning, and more. It's strategy, and no one says you have to do it. personally this is no different than a person complaining that strafe jumping was too difficult in quake, and that it should be removed so it's not 'abused' by better players, and 'the game shouldn't be about strafe jumping anyways'. You can either take the challenge and practice something, or decide not to do it.

 

I played some more games yesterday, and it's understandable people here say you just adjust to the timings, and you do. Except it's dull and boring personally. No mystery or wonder. At least with global sounds, you still have to figure out and remember the times yourself, and it's not given to you on your hud. People should be able to make mistakes (like forgetting a timing) and be punished for it, much like making other mistakes (being in the wrong position for an item) results in a punishment.

 

There's a middle ground here, that's what I feel about this. I'll still play, but dueling and picking up armors feels hella lame. Like no effort, no strategy, just there they are for both to see. Yes there is still strategy in weapon play and positioning, but map control was something cool and unique, and I feel like it's watered down with this.

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You run a risk of showing up early or late, if you're not aware of the respawn time. Situations like this are heavily diminished due to both players knowing the time it respawns. Before you had to have some form of information, or take an educated risk. Personally for me, a lot of this gets watered down when you present that information on the hud.

You make it sound like knowing the spawn time of an item is all you need to get it.  That's clearly not the case.  In a duel on BDM3, someone who shows up early to the Red Armor has a much easier time defending against a rushing attacker.  Knowing the exact spawn time of that item is so rarely useful.  Of course, having a general sense of when it's going to come up is required at a medium to high level (give or take 5 seconds), but giving away the extra information of the exact second doesn't break the balance of the game.  You still have to fight for the item the same as you always did.

 

I didn't know about global sounds personally, I know it was there for mega which I don't mind. global sounds for armors is different though, is that how it is now? I took a break from this and only recently came back.

All game sounds have been audible any range since the beginning of Reflex, and it is still like that.  I really want to stress this point - at the high end of the skill curve, duels are being played exactly the same as they were before item timers were available.  All that item timers have done to duel is raise the skill floor so that people who aren't as familiar with the game know what they should be doing.

 

 

I played some more games yesterday, and it's understandable people here say you just adjust to the timings, and you do. Except it's dull and boring personally. No mystery or wonder. At least with global sounds, you still have to figure out and remember the times yourself, and it's not given to you on your hud.

It sounds like you were basing your entire gameplay around timing items, grabbing armors pacman style.  This is exactly what newborn wanted to break up.  If you spend a few weeks playing with this change in place, I suspect you will improve your skillset for FPSs, even if you go back to a game where you have to time items manually.  You'll probably find yourself playing more to your opponent, which is what sets top players apart from mid-top players.

 

 

People should be able to make mistakes (like forgetting a timing) and be punished for it, much like making other mistakes (being in the wrong position for an item) results in a punishment.

What's more satisfying to winning a game:

  1. Having your opponent miss-time an item and give you control
  2. Outthinking your opponent by guessing his routes with good spam shots, anticipating his movements, and recognizing/punishing his patterns

I prefer option 2.  When I win because of option 1, I feel the game is vapid.

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All game sounds have been audible any range since the beginning of Reflex, and it is still like that.  I really want to stress this point - at the high end of the skill curve, duels are being played exactly the same as they were before item timers were available.  A

 

except before you could miss hearing a sound, forget a timing, etc etc etc etc. the point is the information isn't given to you for free. how can you honestly say they are played the same? no longer do I have to keep track of when red was taken, mega, and maybe a yellow. I just have to look at the hud. Forget when something is coming up? Just look over and contest the item at the right time. It's brainless and feels like I'm playing a mode that's half way to clan arena. You might as well give me their health and armor, because the argument is still the same. Why bother trying to actually figure things out in your head, just give you the info on your hud!

 

Also, you made a mistake

 

 

What's more satisfying to winning a game:

  1. Having your opponent miss-time an item and give you control
  2. Outthinking your opponent by guessing his routes with good spam shots, anticipating his movements, and recognizing/punishing his patterns

I prefer option 2.  When I win because of option 1, I feel the game is vapid.

 

Number 1 should read "Having your opponent make a mistake and give you control"

 

Whether the mistake is positioning, timing, weapon choice, or mis-calculating their stack, at the end of the day it's still a mistake. All you're doing is not punishing them for that mistake. Number 2 still exists at all times, you're just deciding making a mistake for timing shouldn't be an issue.

 

People make mistakes with positioning? Let them see where their opponent is at all times

People make mistakes with weapon choices? Let them see what weapons their opponents have at all times

People make mistakes with timing? Let them see the item timings at all times

 

I can agree, there's timing issues in a game like this. The old system is tough on newer players and is frustrating. What we need is a middle ground

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except before you could miss hearing a sound, forget a timing, etc etc etc etc. the point is the information isn't given to you for free. how can you honestly say they are played the same? no longer do I have to keep track of when red was taken, mega, and maybe a yellow. I just have to look at the hud. Forget when something is coming up? Just look over and contest the item at the right time. It's brainless and feels like I'm playing a mode that's half way to clan arena. You might as well give me their health and armor, because the argument is still the same. Why bother trying to actually figure things out in your head, just give you the info on your hud!

 

Also, you made a mistake

 

 

 

Number 1 should read "Having your opponent make a mistake and give you control"

 

Whether the mistake is positioning, timing, weapon choice, or mis-calculating their stack, at the end of the day it's still a mistake. All you're doing is not punishing them for that mistake. Number 2 still exists at all times, you're just deciding making a mistake for timing shouldn't be an issue.

 

People make mistakes with positioning? Let them see where their opponent is at all times

People make mistakes with weapon choices? Let them see what weapons their opponents have at all times

People make mistakes with timing? Let them see the item timings at all times

 

I can agree, there's timing issues in a game like this. The old system is tough on newer players and is frustrating. What we need is a middle ground

 

Dude you really are too focussed on the timing aspect which quake had. There are a lot of good games that don't require timing and I think most of them are more accessible and more fun for many people, because it's more obvious what you did wrong.. or what your current objective is.

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TosspotMeBro obviously has an agenda. You can't using the same argument over and over again. It's like yelling "I'M RIGHT!". It doesn't really matter how many times you say it after the first, you just dilute it. Hopefully this guy is not a representation of what a "top player" is. Learn to bite your tongue and know that it really isn't even up to you, Bro.

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