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What are the POSITIVE possibilities that can come from this update?

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you should be able to join a public chat with the press of a button with your current username from inside the game at all time. Maybe somehing like the console window but for chat only.

 

Like in osu?

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Like in osu?

That looks really good. Its active aswell which is another problem of most irc channels. people always idle and new people which will most likely use a webinterface will close the tab long before anybody answeres.

 

And i just played my first few rounds of osu! :blink:

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inb4 some crusty relic tells you the game could not possibly be fun without adding those numbers. <3

 

your logic is 'remove something, then argue it was worth nothing when they complain about it's removal'

 

seriously, you're whining about adding numbers? you don't want to add numbers? THEN DON'T. WHY IS THAT SO HARD. go play your casual nonsense, stop acting like timing is OH SO EASY AND OH ITS BORING OH GOD PLEASE REMOVE IT

 

you skill-less casuals are nothing but detriment to positive development of a skillful fps arena shooter. you literally have CPM movement and have hud item timers? that's a joke

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you skill-less casuals are nothing but detriment to positive development of a skillful fps arena shooter.

 

If the devs wanted a high skill arena shooter for pros that could not attract any new players, they'd have kept working on cpma instead of something new. Good god, read some of your posts. It's the most pathetic collection of whining, "No True Scotsman" bullshit I've ever read in my life. Allow a few days for opinions to form that are not your own. Give a new thing a chance.

 

My point is not about removing something and then arguing it was worth nothing. My point is that you're acting like timing was the ONLY fun thing in duel, and that now that it's gone there's no fun left. You're acting like timing was the ONLY high level strategy in duel and that now that it's gone there's no strategy left. Try considering the new strategies that it opens up. You actually are exactly like the people complaining about nerfed rail damage, because the way your posts come across is like you're salty that they nerfed the only thing you're good at instead of considering how it changes play and adapting to the new meta.

 

There are a million people exactly like you every time any change is made in any game. Consider not being That Guy for a minute and just trying the fucking thing instead of posting a million forum threads to see how many times you can use the word "vapid." Come back in a week and post what you think then. You're acting like it's newborn's job to read your shit when the worst part is he doesn't even necessarily disagree with you, but wants to see how it changes gameplay.

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If the devs wanted a high skill arena shooter for pros that could not attract any new players,

 

once again, spewing a narrative that doesn't exist

 

I can't read the rest of your troll posts because you're still putting words in other peoples mouths

 

get a grip on reality before you keep talking nonsense 

 

your post is ALL ASSUMPTIONS. NO ONE IS SAYING THE SHIT YOU'RE SAYING. NO ONE WANTS AN TIMER-ONLY DUEL GAME. NO ONE WANTED IT, NO ONE DEMANDS IT, AND YOU'RE BEYOND IGNORANT FOR THINKING SO 

 

holy fuck ban these trolls plz 

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Being loud is not the same thing as being persuasive. You're not helping your argument any. Seriously, take a break, and come back and discuss it in a few days when you can have a constructive conversation without... frothing.

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If the devs wanted a high skill arena shooter for pros that could not attract any new players, they'd have kept working on cpma instead of something new.

 

good job assuming timing items = no new players coming. logical fallacy # 1

 

 

Good god, read some of your posts. It's the most pathetic collection of whining, "No True Scotsman" bullshit I've ever read in my life. Allow a few days for opinions to form that are not your own. Give a new thing a chance.

 

good job actually understanding my posts /s 

 

 

My point is that you're acting like timing was the ONLY fun thing in duel, and that now that it's gone there's no fun left. 

 

no one is saying this. once again, you're saying shit no one thinks, says, or wants. 

 

 

You're acting like timing was the ONLY high level strategy in duel and that now that it's gone there's no strategy left. 

 

It was a huge chunk of it. Failure to understand this isn't my problem, it's yours. I'm playing at a high level, you're the ignorant person who can't understand the strategy behind this. This isn't other peoples issues, only yours. 

 

 

There are a million people exactly like you every time any change is made in any game. Consider not being That Guy for a minute and just trying the fucking thing instead of posting a million forum threads to see how many times you can use the word "vapid." Come back in a week and post what you think then. You're acting like it's newborn's job to read your shit when the worst part is he doesn't even necessarily disagree with you, but wants to see how it changes gameplay.

 

Once again, the classic argument of 'you just can't handle change'.

 

you proved it once again, you can't argue the actual gameplay elements of the change, you can only argue the change its self. you can only sit there and whine about other people voicing an opinion. you never once actually discussed what happens in high level games when timing is removed, because you likely have no understanding of high level play 

 

this is a black and white case of you not understanding strategies involved in a higher level, putting other peoples words in peoples mouths, and not understanding a complex issue. 

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Being loud is not the same thing as being persuasive. You're not helping your argument any. Seriously, take a break, and come back and discuss it in a few days when you can have a constructive conversation without... frothing.

 

I did, maybe you should argue the actual elements of gameplay instead of arguing I'm another clueless idiot not wanting anything changed. 

 

it's also funny how other high level players like Andriii only echo the same concerns as other high level players. Showing item repsawns on the hud sucks for high level games.

 

I'm greatly sorry you don't want to use your brain while playing a game

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redacted

 

Here's a suggestion that I thought of: Timers should be there, but exist as a question mark (?) until one of three things happen.

1. You pick up a major pickup. It sets up a personal timer for you and only you. Thus, you have the most information, while the other player needs to use the traditional way.

2. You spot the pickup. When it falls into your POV it goes from ? to ACTIVE (or UP, or whatever) which means that it is on the field, at least.

2a. If you do not pick it up yourself, but saw it was active, then maybe it could switch to TAKEN without a timer, giving you half of the situational awareness possible.

3. If you see where the pickup spawns, and it isn't there, it says TAKEN, like with mega. However it doesn't give you a timer. What this means is that if you didn't hear the timer and are not paying attention, the game will at least alert you to the fact it's gone if you fly by it.

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From newborn:

 

Take that into consideration for a second. With this new timer system in place, there is a lot of data that will be coming in from what the forums say. There will be feedback that most people can't even see from high level players. Newborn said himself that if they find that these timers ruin a part of the game in a big way without any shadow of a doubt, they can find a way to make it so that they can't be made.

 

Here's a suggestion that I thought of: Timers should be there, but exist as a question mark (?) until one of three things happen.

1. You pick up a major pickup. It sets up a personal timer for you and only you. Thus, you have the most information, while the other player needs to use the traditional way.

2. You spot the pickup. When it falls into your POV it goes from ? to ACTIVE (or UP, or whatever) which means that it is on the field, at least.

2a. If you do not pick it up yourself, but saw it was active, then maybe it could switch to TAKEN without a timer, giving you half of the situational awareness possible.

3. If you see where the pickup spawns, and it isn't there, it says TAKEN, like with mega. However it doesn't give you a timer. What this means is that if you didn't hear the timer and are not paying attention, the game will at least alert you to the fact it's gone if you fly by it.

 

Edit: I would recommend reading the whole post that paragraph comes from. I think everyone will come out of the discussion much more calmly if they did.

 

I agree with your solutions, at the very least you need to see or hear an item pickup for the hud to display any information. Showing item respawns on the hud is nothing more than a 'gimme' to other players. They can't hit good rockets? Might as well start giving them free mid-airs. Is the movement too difficult? You might as well start making auto-strafe jumps so people don't have to learn. 

 

Reading that posts doesn't make me feel any better about the situation. They wanted a powerful scripting system, at the expense of game meta. Doesn't anyone else see that issue? You want to give players more HUD creating abilities, but completely dumb down a skillful game? And yes, it is dumbing down, I don't care if people say it's right or wrong, bringing up 'well the meta will change' doesn't mean the game will develop into some hyperskilled fps game. Will showing your opponents base area in an RTS increase the skill ceiling? Will showing where the other team planted the bomb in CS increase the skill ceiling? Naturally it wouldn't, you're giving away strategical information that's player specific. 

 

It's easy to think it's personal reasons, but then you see other skilled FPS players post on here with the same concerns, it makes the game more boring, it removes a giant chunk of 'mystery' left within the game modes.When you play duel, armors are a huge part of the game. There's a massive amount of strategy involved in the timing and delaying of items, and the only justifiable answer is 'well the meta will change'. High skilled games have a huge amount of strategy involved in armors, and now that's removed from showing the respawns on the HUD. Arguing 'you don't like change' isn't a justified answer to the concerns players have. I got interested in this game because it's the only arena shooter that's decent and is actually an arena fps game. To see an update like this just hurts me, it makes me feel extremely worried about new games. Everything is dumbed down nowadays, everything holds your hand through a game, the challenges are easy, and overall it's just not a challenge anymore. A new game comes along with the most complex movement systems in FPS history, and yet they put item respawns on the hud and say 'well this isn't quake, so the meta will change'. What they don't see how it negatively affects the meta. People are too critical about bringing in new players, you think people will stick around just because they know when a red armor is up? There's maps where a double-circle-stair-jump is required to get red, you think someones picking that up in a week? Does no one see the massive amount of irony in this? 

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As a note: I redacted the first part of my post because I read a comment you made in that thread I linked that explained in detail how you felt about the change, so I felt that part of my post was not needed.

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Reading that posts doesn't make me feel any better about the situation. They wanted a powerful scripting system, at the expense of game meta. Doesn't anyone else see that issue?

That's pretty misleading, but you have the luxury of not actually being a developer (so you don't actually have to weigh up pros and cons, or even consider anyone but yourself). So, lets walk through the options yet again.

 

  • We could have left the old UI system in place. On the plus side, people wouldn't be able to use in-game timers (although they'd still easily be able to use external ones in ways we cant ever hope to prevent). The down side is that we would lose literally hundreds of hours of development time implementing a ton of features the community could do themselves, into a system that is time consuming to set up and offers zero user customization. I think we can pretty comfortably say that's not a good solution.
  • We could have implemented the new UI system and completely locked it down. Again, you wouldn't be complaining about timers. Again, there would be no in-game timers (but again, there would be external timers we couldn't prevent). We'd still lose a lot of development time to implementing everything ourselves but we'd lose less, since the new UI system is much faster to implement. There would still be zero customization for users. This is a slightly less bad solution.
  • We could have implemented the current UI system but spent a bunch of developer time gimping it to prevent armor timers. This would also gimp legitimate uses though. Then someone would figure out a way around the gimping and make an armor timer. We'd then lose more developer time gimping the new method, breaking more legit community scripts in the process. This cycle would repeat endlessly, until we eventually just went with one of the other solutions, after wasting a bunch of dev time.
  • We could have implemented the current system but NOT exposed timer information and just declared HUD timers as cheats. We still couldn't actually enforce this though, so we'd just have to turn a blind eye to anyone using them. Eventually we'd probably have to implement something that allowed competitions to lock down the hud, implement something to prevent people getting around that and maintain a constantly updated whitelist of what scripts are okay and what ones are not. Meanwhile, everyone who was just using timers anyway would have a significant advantage over other players and near zero chance of being caught. Since on of the foundations of AFPS is that everyone is on an even playing field, unpolluted by bullshit like unlocks and leveling, this system is very bad fit for that. On the plus side, it would have been even less effort originally, although it would be far more effort in the long run.
  • Lastly, we could take the approach we DID take and just expose timers for all to ensure an even playing field and ensure any development time spent locking down timers was actually justified. Despite your new protests every time I refresh the forum, less than 48 hours is not enough time to make a call on that. Again, you have the luxury of "timers vs no timers for high level players" for your entire argument. Unfortunately, we need to consider more than just the top level players. And we need to decide if locking down timers is more important than editor improvements. Or knockback fixes. Or art. Or lighting improvements. Or more game modes. Or more official maps. Or workshop integration. Or matchmaking. Or any other number of things that take development time we will absolutely lose preventing timers / having to create more UI ourselves / using a crappy UI system. 

     

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I'm really excited to see the Reflex team trying new gameplay elements and experimenting with what information is exposed to players - This is exactly why we're taking part in an early access game and why the development team has set up these forums. I understand the argument around why people feel that exposing item timers to all players can harm high-level competitive play, but on the other hand, I find it really concerning that there is this amount of discourse after only 36 hours of it being released. There is no way that anyone has actually tested this and used it enough to have any significant experience with how it impacts gameplay. At this point the argument is almost entirely theoretical, which isn't helpful in the long run.

 

Lastly, please keep in mind that the Quake community is notoriously afraid of any sort of gameplay change. I know that Reflex is not meant to be a CPM clone, and as time goes on I am sure that the gameplay in Reflex will diverge, but there were definitely some lessons to be learned. Throughout the early days of CPM there were several tournaments created to bring in new players from the VQ3 world, and at the end of the day a significant percentage of players who tried CPM ended up not liking it simply because it wasn't what they were used to. People will always have different opinions around what games they prefer, but the issue I have seen is that people start to justify their preferences when in reality they are just used to the gameplay they are most comfortable or familiar with. This is a toxic part of the Quake community that can do Reflex great harm if it goes unchecked.

 

Quake is a game (and a community) steeped in tradition, and most of the people who have stuck around since the 90s and 00s are now nostalgic for a type of game that Reflex probably shouldn't actually become if it wants to survive and be successful.

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If you're running into development issues, I understand that. 

 

I tried to make valid arguments and points in posts, but the responses were just saddening to me. Instead of admitting there would be some form of impact to the meta of the game, you just bring up 'well rail changed' and 'well if rockets were 200 damage it would be even less of a brain game'. You completely missed the point in my posts, you completely misunderstood the point. You didn't try to understand it, you just wanted to argue it. 

 

This game was sold as an old school 90s shooter, and I feel showing item respawns of armors on the hud is contradictory of this games intent. I'm not saying I want to time by the second and want a clock, I would take no timer/clock over this, at least then you would have to go by feel. I've played many fps games, I'm not a quake-only player. This isn't a 'keep it the old way, I don't like change' situation, this is a 'I had fun dueling and playing TDM in reflex, now it feels brainless and vapid when I play'. That's honestly the truth, for me you took a lot of brain away from duels. Suddenly off spawn, there is no longer a mystery of what my opponent picked up, when, and when it will be up. I can know he took the red, and know exactly when it's going to be up, within the first five seconds. This is not a fun game mode to me, this is why I said you're two steps away from making clan arena. 

 

I will go home again and try to play more games, but last night wasn't really a fun time. If I wanted to 'not think about the items' and turn off my brain, I would go play FFA or clan arena. I'm tired of playing brainless, vapid game modes. Duel, TDM and CTF give you lots of strategy based around numerous gameplay elements, one of them being timings of items. You turned information that could normally be exclusive to one player, into information that is now 100% guaranteed globally known by all players. 

 

Once again I will still continue to play and give it a fair shot, but I'm just being honest when I say there's little enjoyment for these game modes anymore. So much potential strategy and tactics are just killed completely by this. No more delaying armors, no more wondering when that red is going to come up, no more of that. It's just feels empty to me. 

 

But hey, you have the casuals players enjoying duel going 'it's so nice not to think about the items anymore'. I'm glad you have something going for you. I guess it's just sad to see high level games get axed in terms of skill ceiling, just so some mid level players feel better about playing duels. I understand you want the game to be more accessible to newer players, but I'm pretty sure presenting when items are spawning on the HUD won't help players who can't grasp the movement, can't grasp the fast paced nature of the game, can't grasp the vast majority of weapons, or can't grasp how to be decent at the game. Putting players together at the same skill level makes players stay longer and makes the game more accessible. What information is given to them is completely subjective, you're not going to gain more players by presenting them with item respawn information. You have the right intent, I'm just questioning the execution. 

 

Once again I get this is all new and being worked around, and I'll still try to play it, but god damn does it make me not wanna duel or tdm at all. and in all honesty that's all I want to play in this game, FFA and arena modes are boring to me. I like some form of strategy involved in the game modes, some form of "mystery" if you will. I know someone will argue there's strategy in showing the exact respawns of the items on the hud, but that's not my point. The "mystery" of what's going on is where a huge chunk of strategy and fun comes from, you remove that 'mystery' with the item timers. Even the new Unreals' item system would be better than this, at least you need to go to the item to get a rough idea of when it's coming up. This system just gives me everything for free, at no risk. A super easy compromise is having the timers only show if you saw or heard the item yourself, the frustration seems to be coming from remembering item timers, and doing the math. Letting players know the number alleviates that frustration, while keeping the mystery still there (if you don't see or hear the item pickup, the number on the hud shows nothing). At least with something like that, you're keeping casuals happy without blowing a hole in the meta, especially when the root of all this comes from technical issues relating to hud scripting (something unrelated from gameplay). 

 

I also apologize for being a dick, that other guy had me frustrated with his troll posts "math is easy, timing is boring, etc". The game is really good, which is why I like it so much. It's also one of the only games that actually fills the void of 'arena fps' without being bad or gimmicky and missing the original intent. I was super excited until this update, only because of the timing issue. I guess it's because I feel like there's nothing else to play if this game is something I don't enjoy anymore. Everything other shooter is just crap right now, all the 'arena' comeback games are either bad or just not fun. Also, trying to discuss and explain stuff like this over text is brutal, talking in person or through voice is much easier for all of this. 

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Please, please get it through your head that disagreeing with you is not trolling. Other than that there's nothing in your post worth responding to that newborn hasn't already covered better. Math IS easy. Timing IS boring. The strategy timing enables is interesting, and if you'd made half your points in a calm, adult manner earlier we wouldn't have had anything to argue about.

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Say the pickupTimers table didn't exist, and because I suck at timing, I created a script - let's call this a "timer helper". If I think my opponent has just picked up red, I press numpad 1 or something, and a little timer onscreen starts counting down from however many seconds. Mega on numpad 2, quad on numpad 3, etc. I even have it set up to play a wav of a little bell ringing or a cute girl going "dinner's ready!".

 

Is this the kind of thing you're getting at with option #4, newborn? If scripts can get at armour status and you don't mean them to, you should treat this as if they have access to player position information - from a little tinkering, you seem to have a good degree of control over what is exposed to UI scripters, so it would be a bug. I wouldn't consider a "timer helper" script to be an abuse of the system, though I'm sure some players would frown on it. And yes, that would be impossible to disallow.

 

The important thing is that there's a crucial difference, at least in my mind, between a "timer helper" and giving everyone all armour status information at all times. One is automation. You can allow one without feeling like you should have the other. I might have completely misunderstood your position, but I certainly understand that you want to have a flexible system without giving anyone an unfair advantage due to it, and can understand your thought process.

 

FWIW, I'm a casual player but I love scripting/modding games with Lua, and I love what you've done with it so far. I simply feel that giving everyone armour status at all times for basically technical reasons is overthinking things a little bit? I'd also be curious to hear from other players what they would think about "timer helper" scripts if armour status was withheld from the scripting system.

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Lastly, please keep in mind that the Quake community is notoriously afraid of any sort of gameplay change. I know that Reflex is not meant to be a CPM clone, and as time goes on I am sure that the gameplay in Reflex will diverge, but there were definitely some lessons to be learned. Throughout the early days of CPM there were several tournaments created to bring in new players from the VQ3 world, and at the end of the day a significant percentage of players who tried CPM ended up not liking it simply because it wasn't what they were used to. People will always have different opinions around what games they prefer, but the issue I have seen is that people start to justify their preferences when in reality they are just used to the gameplay they are most comfortable or familiar with. This is a toxic part of the Quake community that can do Reflex great harm if it goes unchecked.

 

Quake is a game (and a community) steeped in tradition, and most of the people who have stuck around since the 90s and 00s are now nostalgic for a type of game that Reflex probably shouldn't actually become if it wants to survive and be successful.

 

This is exactly what I've been saying since I first discovered Reflex. The gameplay and meta in Quake-style arena shooters really hasn't changed much in 15+ years. As you mentioned, people tend to react negatively to any sort of change from what they are comfortable/familiar with. If Reflex is ever going to stand out and be unique and successful, it needs to do something to deviate itself from the standard Quake formula of which there are countless imitators. If the game ends up being a modernized CPM clone, it will not succeed. I'm pretty sure the devs realize this, and I have faith that they'll eventually come up with their own unique take on the genre.

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I'm for the experiments, but due to the fact that many quake lovers including me were missing primarily ratings, matchmaking and tournament system, I'm personally fine with cpm clone (being QL player) with all that stuff and then start trying new things. Its nice to have new textures, models or gameplay experiments but only when they do not consume time from inplementing match making system.

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  • We could have implemented the current system but NOT exposed timer information and just declared HUD timers as cheats. We still couldn't actually enforce this though, so we'd just have to turn a blind eye to anyone using them. Eventually we'd probably have to implement something that allowed competitions to lock down the hud, implement something to prevent people getting around that and maintain a constantly updated whitelist of what scripts are okay and what ones are not. Meanwhile, everyone who was just using timers anyway would have a significant advantage over other players and near zero chance of being caught. Since on of the foundations of AFPS is that everyone is on an even playing field, unpolluted by bullshit like unlocks and leveling, this system is very bad fit for that. On the plus side, it would have been even less effort originally, although it would be far more effort in the long run.

 

maybe i'm ignorant here, but if timer information wasn't exposed, then wouldn't the majority of these scripts require manual input or only work on self pickups?  that isn't a significant advantage, if it is one at all, since there is no information advantage -- only calculation/memory. the problem now is both players have perfect information and it dilutes the game since both players know where each other are or are going at all times.

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maybe i'm ignorant here, but if timer information wasn't exposed, then wouldn't the majority of these scripts require manual input or only work on self pickups?  that isn't a significant advantage, if it is one at all, since there is no information advantage -- only calculation/memory. the problem now is both players have perfect information and it dilutes the game since both players know where each other are or are going at all times.

 

I feel like a system that limited your knowledge of pickups to an event-based system, where you only get informed of items you take, would be better because it would (hopefully) end up like this. If you take the item, your HUD scripts can register that and auto-time it. If not, you need to press buttons, which would be a pretty cumbersome system to configure well for different maps with differing items.

 

I honestly haven't felt much of a change in the few games I've played, although I feel like that's just because all of the maps so far are quite small and you know where your opponent is at all times anyway. If it was QL then having timers like this would "dilute" the game, but I don't see it being as that big of a deal in Reflex. Either way something about the omnipotence of it feels off to me, and I'd be interested at least to see it locked down a bit more like I suggested.

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