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OhYeah

Some suggestions from an old (literally!) Quake player

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Hello Reflex fans and most importantly, developers.

This is going to be a long post, for which I apologize in advance. We bought the 4pack in Steam with some friends yesterday night and I've just given it my first try. I like what I see and because of years of being a Quake fan I immediately had a torrent of ideas and suggestions, which could be subtitled as "shameless promotion of obscure game mechanics from Quake 2".

My experience with FPS games: I'm pretty mediocre as an FPS player, but I do have a long history with different competitive FPS games since 2000: Quake 2, Left 4 Dead series, Team Fortress 2, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. I've been a player, tournament administrator, I've done some casting. Quake 2 is the best FPS game ever made in my eyes, so let's just get that out of the way. I'm biased as hell, but that doesn't mean my words don't hold merit.

-- First, the good stuff --

1) Movement. You've kept the overall pace of the game slower than Quake 3 / Quake Live.

2) Slower rockets. This is seriously cool.

3) Double-jumping is not impotent and feeble like it was in Quake Live.

4) LAN support, dedicated servers, Steamworks support, in-game stats, matchmaking. This all music to my ears. Thumbs up, seriously.

The basics are all here.


-- My suggestions regarding important game mechanics --

1) Double-jumping needs to be more complex and controllable. The height of the surface where you are jumping from, your speed and acceleration, whether you are using strafe or not, combining it with circle-jumping should make for a more interesting movement mechanics. Please observe this very old (pre-2k) demo with Q2DM1 trickjumping: https://youtu.be/gxqYezKLgro?t=73
Until about 2:27.

Please pay special attention to the two jumps from 1:22 to 1:31. This kind of delicate manipulation of the game physics was never possible in Q3A or QL. Most players didn't use them during matches in Q2 (because they are quite hard jumps to perform while you are being fired at), but they nevertheless add a subtle level of depth to the game.


2) Fast weapon switching is dumb. There is a reason why it is absent in many successful competitive FPS games. It adds nothing to the game but making it one dimensional "run, and spam your opponent down" brawl. Slow weapon switch combined with some powerful, yet difficult to use weapons (such as the chaingun in Q2 which required a startup and cooldown time which made you vulnerable) adds immediately another dimension to the game. You need to think about your position, what kind of weapon you are holding, what kind of weapon the enemy is holding, what other weapons you both have, and the what is the weapon you are going to use when you confront him. In Q3A/QL you could do a serious miscalculation while merging with your opponent and still come on top because the weapon switch was so quick that it wasn't really a factor that determined the outcome of the merge or at least heavily tipped the odds in that player's favour who made the correct strategic decision.


3) Overuse of jump pads and no elevators. Jump pads were originally missing from Q2 and when they were finally added in some custom maps, players loved them because they add another vertical layer to the game. However, in some places elevators are better suited. They make for nice choke points and on top of that, you can use moving lifts for trickjumping.


4) Maps, maps, maps. Q2 had two legendary maps Q2DM1 (The Edge) and Q2DM3 (The Frag Pipe) which were played daily for years and years. I always thought the maps in Q3A/QL were one of the games weaker points. It's better to have 3-4 excellent maps than 10-15 average ones. You could start by stealing a couple from Q2. :)

PS. Balanced maps play as well for duels as they do for team-DM. Which brings me to my next point.


5) This game needs to be team oriented. 4v4 team-DM is the key to success. Quake Live is dead because people were only interested in watching big names duel on stage and no one played the game. CS:GO and TF2, two of the most popular FPS games in Steam are team games, and team games *only*.


6) Railgun. I think this game needs a railgun. And I think it should do a 100 damage. There, I said it. I said "bring spawn raping back". Well, not maybe in the extreme like in Q2. As a drawback it could have a longer cooldown, less ammo, it could be more rare or in more dangerous locations.


7) Hand grenades as a comeback weapon are a good idea for weapon balance. Good players made magical impact kills with hand grenades. It has a significant advantage over the grenade launcher, because you can time when the grenades are set the explode.


How did a game of Q2 look in the hands of top players? Despite the slower overall pace, slower weapons, slower weapon switch it was still pretty fast-paced and intense:




TLDR; Please don't make another Q3A clone. There are interesting game mechanics to be added from various games, many of which didn't get the recognition they perhaps deserved.

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The game has a railgun. It does 80 damage. Everyone seems to hate it but me. A couple of your points seem like you're not that familiar with Reflex yet. Go watch some Defrag trickjumping videos. That's the physics this game is based on.

 

I agree with you about team modes though. To me Quake multiplayer was always about TDM and CTF. The only reason Duel ever became popular is that it let sponsors get their name in front of people for the minimum amount of money (it's cheaper to sponsor one player than 4-5), and because player numbers dwindled so low that the prospect of watching people 1v1 actually started to seem like a good idea. A 1v1 multiplayer game should seem like  a waste of a server to people. Dueling can be fun, but I hate it as the "main competitive mode" or whatever.

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1. nah, cpm movement is overall more cohesive and polished

 

2. slow weapon switching is lame and encourages passive play, fast weapon switching encourages high damage outputs, innovation with weapon combos, and more confidence in plays. slow weapon switching wouldn't fit at all with the speed of the movement possible here either

 

3. this is something for mappers to decide

 

4. q2dm1 was a ridiculous map, it's like deck16 in ut, i have no idea how they got away with such terrible, overly large map design with poor flow. that's not what most afps players look for, maps like aerowalk, campgrounds, have shown players how they can have maps with amazing flow and complex, interconnecting layouts

 

5. nope duel was always the primary competitive mode for all afps/quake games, followed by ctf and tdm

 

6. have.. have you even played the game?

 

7. we don't even have blockouts of weapon models yet that aren't the RL, it's an interesting concept but i'd rather wait and see until devs are done balancing our current set

 

your post is tl;dr pls don't make a q3 clone, make a q2 clone 

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This is a reply to reverb.

 

1. Cohesive and polished maybe, but not as nuanced and layered.

 

2. No, it does not encourage "passive play", but "intelligent play". In a fast-paced game like this it is one of the main ways for a player with worse aim but better positional and situational awareness to counter his opponent. Ultra-fast weapon switch rewards aggressive players with excellent aim and with no drawbacks or risks.

 

3. Agreed.

 

4. Campgrounds is a fucking terrible map, IMHO. Aerowalk is pretty good.

 

5. Yes, and how many players play Quake series and how many players play TF2 or CS:GO?

 

6. I apologize for the confusing wording. My point is, the railgun should do a 100 damage, not 80 or some other non-100 number. :)

 

7. Thank you.

 

your post is tl;dr pls don't make a q3 clone, make a q2 clone  << I know it might've come off like that, but that was not the point. There are many aspects and small details that I like about TF2 for example, that could possibly be considered for Reflex. I just concentrated on the stuff that I liked about Q2 and what made it different from Q3A/QL.

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1) Double-jumping needs to be more complex and controllable. The height of the surface where you are jumping from, your speed and acceleration, whether you are using strafe or not, combining it with circle-jumping ...

 

.. is pretty much 101 of Reflex double jumping.

 

 

Try it out, map smiledm1 to console.

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1. given that cpm took code from quakeworld and hybridized it with quake 3 to create it's own beast and then further tweaked for the competitive scene, it really is more nuanced and layered than quake 2 on it's own. you are a bit biased towards q2.

 

2. a player with worse aim and situational awareness would not be helped by slower weapon switch, he'd just die faster lol

"Ultra-fast weapon switch rewards aggressive players with excellent aim and with no drawbacks or risks."

what's wrong with this? rewarding excellent aim with kills is logical in an fps, why should there be "drawbacks" or risks for playing a certain way either, a way which the game encourages

 

4. okay, my point still stands.

 

5. i'm not sure how that's even relevant. when arena fps used to have the big stage in the budding esports world it was ALWAYS with duel. that's the primary competitive mode with these kind of games, it always has been. imo it's the best mode for competitive play in these games, but that's a lot more theory i'm not going to go into in this thread.

 

6. it doesn't because predicting movement with projectiles and hitting takes more skill than pointing and clicking, so there is less of a reward.

 

7. np

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.. is pretty much 101 of Reflex double jumping.

 

 

Try it out, map smiledm1 to console.

 

Thanks, this is great. I think the maps I tried out were a bit limited in this aspect because of the environments. It's a lot better than I thought.

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2. a player with worse aim and situational awareness would not be helped by slower weapon switch, he'd just die faster lol

"Ultra-fast weapon switch rewards aggressive players with excellent aim and with no drawbacks or risks."

what's wrong with this? rewarding excellent aim with kills is logical in an fps, why should there be "drawbacks" or risks for playing a certain way either, a way which the game encourages

 

There is a way to counter players with superior aim in other games that I've played recently (L4D, TF2, CS:GO). I know several high-ranked players in CS:GO who admit that they have terrible aim but they simply out-play their opponents with other aspects of the game (timing of peeks, good grenades, better angles, good lurking, good fakes and good reading of the opponent's play). This kind of thing was somewhat possible in Q2 and not-at-all possible in Q3A/QL/CPMA. If you take other factors out of the game and condense it down to a few key prequisites, you will end up with a game that is one dimensional and ultimately boring to play because you have no chance if you are seriously lacking in one the key areas. If you think that is the way the game is supposed to be, that's fine, but that game will be completely dead in 3 years time.

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I know several high-ranked players in CS:GO who admit that they have terrible aim but they simply out-play their opponents with other aspects of the game (timing of peeks, good grenades, better angles, good lurking, good fakes and good reading of the opponent's play). This kind of thing was somewhat possible in Q2 and not-at-all possible in Q3A/QL/CPMA.

I don't really agree with this, brain vs aim was always a controversy in quake 3 and quake live. a player like rapha vs a player like strenx for example. aim could net you wins, easily

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you're comparing two completely different types of shooters and saying that because one type will never meet the expectations of the other type, it will fail lol

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This kind of thing was somewhat possible in Q2 and not-at-all possible in Q3A/QL/CPMA.

 

Here's a video that was posted by another member for a completely different argument:

 

https://youtu.be/XdkDjsBiO58?t=3m49s

 

That video is pretty much all brain game and no aim. You can see a lot of strong aim players in q3/ql get out played by smarter opponents. Strong aim can make up for a certain amount of strategic prowess, but it's a balancing act, and if your opponent is smart enough then you'll need some amount of game sense to compliment your aim.

 

 

Well I think that CS is ultimately boring. This is a twitch shooter, not a tactical shooter.

 

That opinion is widely irrelevant and even fairly childish. I don't enjoy CS, but you can't dismiss CS is a massively successful franchise that requires a lot of skill and strategy. Two aspects that are very desirable in any competitive setting.

 

To touch on game modes. I also tend to believe that for reflex to garner and maintain a sizable comp following that the focus should be on a team format.

 

Probly the biggest reason duel has been so dominant is how easy it is to support. It's easy to sponsor, easy to cast, easy to spectate. And I realize that many believe it's the ultimate testament to skill. But I think any duel scene becomes quite stagnant very fast. Of course the games themselves will always be interesting and tense, as the top players continue to grow and build off each other.

 

But it's the scene over all I think that becomes stagnant. I think a team based scene remains much more open and interesting for everyone involved, and not just for the highest player percentage and the die hard fans who follow it.

 

Rosters change, bringing teams up and down in the standings, even making room for new teams. That's much more interesting for fans. I also believe team modes are much more inviting to newer players all skill levels. That keeps them interested and supporting the scene while the top level of play keeps on. Those lower players are having fun playing the game, and providing viewership to high level coverage as they watch and learn, and have something to aspire too.

 

Also strategy in duels is not at all apparent to outsiders, which is hugely harmful. I've had friends tell me they're not interested in dueling because it's easily dismissed as straight up DM. And while I can explain to them the strategy and depth in dueling, it goes to show what the easiest initial perception of the game mode is. A perception for many which won't change without persuasion from someone they respect and are willing to listen to.

 

Unfortunately this is also problem for TDM, and even to an extent CTF. I truly believe that in the broader Esports scene people are much more interested in viewing and playing in objective modes. "Pointless killing", just isn't interesting to them. This is part of where CS excels. The intensity of a 2v1 scenario with a ticking bomb is infinitely more apparent than say, a guy "waiting around" for red armor, or someone "running away" to find a stronger engagement.

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1) Double-jumping needs to be more complex and controllable.

Ramp jumping pretty much covers all of these mechanics.

2) Fast weapon switching is dumb.

I disasgree wholeheartedly. Reflex (and quake) already have delayed weapon switching in the form of reload times. 99% of games allow you to swap out of a reload, but Reflex (and quake) do not. Combining this with a switch time makes the game feel unresponsive and clunky, and doesn't blend well with the frenetic pace that the movement of the game lends itself to. This doesn't mean that methodical, tactical play isn't possible, or important. It just presents itself in a different form. Being forced to commit to your decisions and being punished for making incorrect decisions is amplified by this mechanic.

 

Yes, it is true that (for exmaple) an awper in cs is forced to make a decision of what weapon to have ready because of swap times, but it is equally true that they get a free shot before swapping to their pistol even if they are caught out.

 

Reflex simply doesn't have enough downtime to justify lengthened swap times, and reload times are critical to restricting combo potential and forcing meaningful decisions. And as I already said, combining the reload restriction with long swap times just feels bad.

3) Overuse of jump pads and no elevators.

I agree to some extent.Sometimes it's nice to be able to give vertical movement without the insane potential of stairs or ramps. and instead force players into a terrible position (mid air without much control), but at the same time they're extremely frustrating to use and in my opinion reduce one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game - freedom of movement. I prefer strategic weapon placement which allows relatively free vertical movement at the cost of health, rather than restricted vertical movement at the cost of dying horribly 100% of the time if there's an enemy within shouting distance when you take the jump pad. Elevators are sort of a nice comprimise because at least you don't get floated into the air begging to get pinned to the wall with 100% shaft.

4) Maps, maps, maps.

Have you seen the editor? Once we get some proper grouping options I don't see this being a problem, ever.

5) Team based gamemodes.

I agree to an extent (but duels are still important), and the devs have already stated their intentions of bringing back teamplay into the mix. The real questions that need to be asked IMO relate to balancing the constants of the game -- weapons and items, to allow great teamplay and great duels simultaneously. Maps are not a constant and I don't see any reason why they need to be.

6) Railgun.

I think that 100 damage rails just don't have a place in the game, period.

7) Hand grenades as a comeback weapon.

Have cook-able grenades ever been a good idea in a game, ever? Theres a reason you can't cook grenades in CS, and there's a reason that CoD Promod explicity disables the feature when it was in the base game (why they didn't remove exploding cars is beyond me). Nades in this game are already super strong anyway. You know what really made for some sick comebacks? Painkiller stakegun hint hint hint.

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5. i'm not sure how that's even relevant. when arena fps used to have the big stage in the budding esports world it was ALWAYS with duel. that's the primary competitive mode with these kind of games, it always has been. imo it's the best mode for competitive play in these games, but that's a lot more theory i'm not going to go into in this thread.

 

"it's always been this way" is not a good reason for it to stay that way. gaming is a lot different than it was 15 years ago

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I am sorry but I don't see how my comment is childish. CS is a tactical shooter. TACTICAL do you understand? Reflex is a twitch shooter, hence the name "Reflex". It tests you reflexes duh. And also, just because I don't like you camper game, it doesn't mean that my point is invalid.

 

Tbh I think it does invalidate your point. You've taken such a close minded and even faulty approach, the flawed logic really hurts the point.

 

Yes reflex is a "twitch" shooter. That doesn't mean it's devoid of strategy and tactical play, and it doesn't mean that it should be devoid of any of these.

 

Your stance basically boils down to completely disregarding any positive merit the game has due to the fact you don't like it. I don't like it either, but I won't dismiss/shit talk anything relating to it based on my distaste for it.

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you're comparing two completely different types of shooters and saying that because one type will never meet the expectations of the other type, it will fail lol

 

That's not what I said. But there is some truth in that argument. Do you want bring players from other successful FPS franchises over to Reflex to make sure the player base grows steadily? I think duel-focused CPMA with a newer engine is not the key to for doing that, if I'm honest.

 

Here is my argument: consider the factors that made other FPS games popular and find out if there are any ways to bring the traditional twitch shooter into the 21st century.

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Have you... have you ever played Quake 3?

 

Yes, a little. My initial comment was based around jumping around in maps, after playing some FFA I would say the game still feels a little slower paced than Q3A, but the difference is not big.

 

But I'm rapidly getting the feeling that unless you were a hardcore QL/CPMA fan, you don't have a say here.

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First of all personal attacks like calling someone "childish" is not a very good way of proving your point. If you want a troll battle with me, to see whoever can come up with better comebacks, we can do that. Also, I don't need to go in much detail explaining why CS sucks. But if you would like to hear my opinion about why it does suck, I can come up with a list just for you.

Also, I never said that you shouldn't play tactically. You can, if you really want to. But having slow weapon switch Is a bit over the top, because it forces everyone to play this way.

 

he didn't call you childish - he called your comments childish. that's not a personal attack

 

that said, i think we can all safely conclude after reading your posts that you're either an actual child or an adult with a child's brain as a result of a lack of mental development or a transplant

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"it's always been this way" is not a good reason for it to stay that way. gaming is a lot different than it was 15 years ago

 

obviously, but tdm/ctf  arena fps games are a looot harder to understand from a spectator pov than a duel. there are no pre-defined roles or classes as in tf2 or mobas, it's all decided by the team and not communicated in any way to the outside.

tdm games especially would require incredibly good casters for a casual spectator to even get a basic idea of what was going on.

 

in duel it's one-on-one so there's less of this. personally i prefer duel as well, it's like if you took, say, the 5 classes from LoL and combined them into one hero and two of these battled.

it's two people with ultimate access to all the resources and skills possibly available in the game, fighting to frag their opponent.they have to assume all the roles - farm resources, get kills, track spawns, heal up - themselves.

it's a crazy battle of skill and i think it would be awesome to see that on the now-grown up esports stage again, with reflex(maybe). but if team games are your thing, by all means.

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