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Will the item timers stay?

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I think most people already knows (and hopefully agrees) this, that the timers are really good for ppl who are new to AFPS. But it totally destroys competitive games for the most parts.

Still waiting for someone to actually defend this claim instead of just regurgitating empty and repeatedly refuted arguments. :ph34r:

 

+1 to splitting things being bad, the last thing we need is people isolating themselves because they only play the mode that makes them comfortable. Arena mode does this enough by itself, but at least it's an entirely different game mode.

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I think most people already knows (and hopefully agrees) this, that the timers are really good for ppl who are new to AFPS. But it totally destroys competitive games for the most parts.

 

So, imo the "beginner"mode with timers is the best solution.

Timing items precisely has never been a substantial skill in any arena shooter, it's an unfair mechanic which some excel naturally at because of better genes, some need years of mental practice because they're dumb, some don't give a fuck and some straight out cheat the fuck out it because they can. Q2 community universally agreed to allow pickup timers in tourneys, because they were intelligent enough to realize there's no way to distinguish genuine timing from fraud timing. 

 

Does seeing pickup times for items that you didn't see/hear picked up suck? Yes. Does seeing the times for items that you saw/heard or picked yourself suck? No, it makes an uncontrollable exploit controllable. If you think that throughout the history of aFPS nobody has ever had any kind of aid for item timing, you're being naive. And if you think timing items in itself makes the fundamental structure of competitive aFPS games, you're being delusional and probably been playing the game wrong all along. 

 

Now, all you need to do is to adapt, right ?

I'm glad you finally agree and you should go and take your own word for it immediately, because the timers wont be gone any time soon. 

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Locking the HUD down to default is not a solution purely by itself. The default HUD is barely better than the temporary hardcoded HUD that existed before the Lua update (and I think we all agree that the original HUD was awful) and having no customisation at all would put Reflex miles behind the games that it has presently been surpassing. How about a system by which widgets can be registered to various callbacks and each run in an isolated fashion (ie preventing shared variables) to prevent there being any concept of time? If the widget's draw function is only called when the widget might need to update, then it becomes impossible to time things precisely - and that allows everyone to have their customised HUDs and everything while still disabling timers. If people will sometimes have to play with the default HUD, then people will ONLY play with the default HUD. And removing customisation is a major error. Locked HUDs would lose the ability to animate, but that's not such a big sacrifice, and there might be some way around that without enabling people to time. Of course, you'd have to remove the clock altogether, but that's pretty much essential anyway, as a few people have already said.

 

So, should I just delete all my Lua widgets that I've written?

 

Edit: If you're not sure what I mean by callbacks:

21:21 - Qualx: callback as in instead of calling draw() every frame

21:21 - Qualx: you could for example
21:21 - Qualx: registerArmorBar("widgetName")
21:21 - Qualx: And then widgetName:drawArmorBar(amount,type) would get called
21:22 - Qualx: whenever armor updates

 

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Timing items precisely has never been a substantial skill in any arena shooter, it's an unfair mechanic which some excel naturally at because of better genes, some need years of mental practice because they're dumb, some don't give a fuck and some straight out cheat the fuck out it because they can. Q2 community universally agreed to allow pickup timers in tourneys, because they were intelligent enough to realize there's no way to distinguish genuine timing from fraud timing. 

 

Does seeing pickup times for items that you didn't see/hear picked up suck? Yes. Does seeing the times for items that you saw/heard or picked yourself suck? No, it makes an uncontrollable exploit controllable. If you think that throughout the history of aFPS nobody has ever had any kind of aid for item timing, you're being naive. And if you think timing items in itself makes the fundamental structure of competitive aFPS games, you're being delusional and probably been playing the game wrong all along.

So, remove skilled parts of the game just because someone else will cheat anyways ? Why you even play the game then, if everyone cheats anyway, your logic is purely stupid. Timing is a game mechanic that some people excel, some doesnt. Just like movement and aiming, some people suck, some people never learn and some people excel naturally. Some people are intelligent, some people arent. You should definately go play candy crush since skill is something you apparently dont appreciate.

 

Timing items are as important as aim and movement. So, its not me whos delusional here.

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So, remove skilled parts of the game just because someone else will cheat anyways ? Why you even play the game then, if everyone cheats anyway, your logic is purely stupid. Timing is a game mechanic that some people excel, some doesnt. Just like movement and aiming, some people suck, some people never learn and some people excel naturally. Some people are intelligent, some people arent. You should definately go play candy crush since skill is something you apparently dont appreciate.

 

Timing items are as important as aim and movement. So, its not me whos delusional here.

 

There are skills that are fun and those who aren't. I don't find calculating numbers any fun. If you do...good for you. Maybe join the mathletes. I do like the principle of having objects ingame you have to control. It's very much comparable to CS:GO and having map-control or gaining info.

 

If there'd be a way to avoid timings at all i'd be all for it. Simply because it's not fucking enjoyable to have a such dramatic gameplay mechanic ingame that's based on fucking calculating some numbers.

 

In Dota2 you have random runes spawning at a certain point of time, both teams try to control them. Both teams know when they spawn it's just a matter of proper execution to actually get them/take control over them. That's what item-timers did for me....evening the field and putting more emphasis on other aspects.

 

( don't get me wrong...i'm fine with both timers and no timers, but i'd PREFER timers. What i don't enjoy at all is making gameplay votable. )

 

Well..whatever. I fear that this decision was rather based on newborn not wanting to hear the crying/bitching from both sides anymore instead of real reasons. It'd def. love to hear the reasoning behind it other than trying to desperately please certain people.

 

Also funny how no one, yes no one, did what f.e. Electro asked for: post actual demos of people playing with timers. Personally i'm wondering if newborn was able to observe anything at all, last time i checked he observed people crying about timers, watched them play and saw that they played bad no matter if timers or not. That was some time ago though and certainly not 100% his words.

 

Cup looked fine with timers as well... so what's the fucking problem besides some people crying?

 

Ah well....

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I hope not. Now were getting truly rid of them yay o/

I don`t know... I actually like the timers because they can give a lot of possibilities to the gameplay in my opinion. Sometimes when I see that a major item is coming up I think to myself "mmm, i`ll get to a certain part of the map, try to deal some damage and then go to pick it up as my enemy goes to retreat, if it doesn`t happen that way, I try to think a possibility to try to get out of my situation alive" as in another games, I just went full berserk and stayed 24/7 until the item respawns.

 

Don`t know, its my opinion.

 

And...

 

 

Now, all you need to do is to adapt, right ?

 You sounded like an ass for me...

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Timing items are as important as aim and movement.

Keeping track of information is as important as aim and movement. Timing is just a way to have an edge, cypher didn't time at all when he was in godmode in 2008 and that's in vq3. It didn't matter because he outaimed and out fought his enemies at the items anyway.

 

Personally, after playing with timers on and off, I don't care if they stay or go, because I don't think they matter all that much.

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I personally don't think the timers detracted nearly as much as some people claimed and I think the benefits of awesome huds (like our reflexrun or casting hud or qualx/tehace casting hud) far outweighs any possible negative side effects of allowing timers... I just can't see it.. But then I've been able to count +25 for 25+ years.. Some here probably have way less experience with doing math in their heads it seems..

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The timers really are great.  I don't see why they should not be included? I think it adds to the game really and lets the players know when they should be doing things (experienced players can do this without timers, but its good for beginners!). It makes the learning curve not as steep. It levels the playing field somewhat. Honestly I think some of these guys that don't want the timers are afraid of new players getting better and learning to duel :) 

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I didn't - and actually still don't - want the timers, but I have come to recognise that they level the playing field when it comes to fighting against people who use the clock religiously, and I have also found assorted interesting uses for them. In my opinion, it is not worth the cost of locking the HUD to default and rendering worthless all the work that loads of people have put into creating cool widgets, just to pander to people who play like morons and zerg every item just because they're spawning - especially not if the game is going to keep its clock by default. It's sad that the people making the most noise in the anti-timers argument aren't actually thinking about anything more than "now it's harder to stomp weaker players because they make fewer mistakes".

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Isn't the reason behind item timer to remove a boring mechanic? that could make the game more popular and that all top players
were already timing anyway. Having item timer on will emphasize the current player skills at fighting and controlling the objectives area and it should give the viewers
and new players a more fun and action packed game to watch. I personally think that heavly modified UI is a bigger issue if
you go watch a stream of a top player and 90% of his UI is modified you'll feel like you need to download all these UI tweak to perform at the same level.
 

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So, remove skilled parts of the game just because someone else will cheat anyways ? Why you even play the game then, if everyone cheats anyway, your logic is purely stupid. Timing is a game mechanic that some people excel, some doesnt. Just like movement and aiming, some people suck, some people never learn and some people excel naturally. Some people are intelligent, some people arent. 

 

Timing items are as important as aim and movement. So, its not me whos delusional here.

Except you can tell when someone is aimbotting or idk.. strafebotting? But you can't tell if someone has an atomic watch for brain or just an application running on their secondary monitor for timing items. Timing items is an incoherent skill and it lacking is more than acceptable if it means getting a growing playerbase to tag along. IAMPILL put it out nicely, collecting information and being in right places for it is what matters, not how you fucking catalog it lol.

 

You should definately go play candy crush since skill is something you apparently dont appreciate.

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(I had a really long and well-thought out reply, but I accidentally pressed the Backspace key and lost the post since Chrome went back to the previous page... Below is a summary that isn't as good :angry:)

 

I'd like to think I was reasonable in my position against timers and not one of the whiners (example with some background and links at ), so I'll try to address some of the issues. The game consists of aim, movement, and strategy (which includes timing and other things), and everyone has a different style so it's normal that some people don't agree with the "hate" that timers get. KovaaK is a well-respected top player and doesn't have a problem with them (at least for duels, he's unsure on their impact on team modes). Sane is another top-level player but he doesn't like them. I also don't like them, especially in team modes which seem to have been largely ignored during these discussions. By adding timers, the strategic component is changed and more emphasis is placed on movement and aim.

 

There are skills that are fun and those who aren't. I don't find calculating numbers any fun. If you do...good for you. Maybe join the mathletes. I do like the principle of having objects ingame you have to control.

 

If there'd be a way to avoid timings at all i'd be all for it. Simply because it's not fucking enjoyable to have a such dramatic gameplay mechanic ingame that's based on fucking calculating some numbers.

 

There is no joy in doing the math. The joy is in gathering information, making decisions, and ultimately out-smarting your opponent. I don't enjoy running around as fast as possible, my movement isn't the best so I compensate with strategy which I do enjoy and which I believe adds depth to the game. This is especially true in team modes.

 

The timers really are great.  I don't see why they should not be included? I think it adds to the game really and lets the players know when they should be doing things (experienced players can do this without timers, but its good for beginners!). It makes the learning curve not as steep. It levels the playing field somewhat. Honestly I think some of these guys that don't want the timers are afraid of new players getting better and learning to duel :)

 

I agree that they level the playing field, but the problem is that they do it by removing options and advantages for players of a certain style. You can also level the playing field by removing sounds (I have a positional advantage if I pay attention to your spawns, which healthpacks you took, when you fell, etc...), so why not remove sounds? You can level the playing field by making aim easier (20% automatic aim assist like some bots do), why not do that? And nobody is afraid of beginners getting better  :D

 

Isn't the reason behind item timer to remove a boring mechanic? that could make the game more popular and that all top players were already timing anyway.

 

Having the timers ON by default and OFF by vote should work fine then (ignoring the possible dividing of the community). And even though most top players time, nobody does it perfectly. This imperfection leads to strategic opportunities to gather information your opponent does not have, make decisions, take back control, etc... (again, this is especially true in team modes IMO).

 

Having item timer on will emphasize the current player skills at fighting and controlling the objectives area and it should give the viewers
and new players a more fun and action packed game to watch.

 

The emphasis is always on controlling areas, regardless of whether timers are enabled or not. I see this in QW all the time, too many noobs chase a kill instead of focusing on control. And viewers won't be restricted, they can have timers enabled. Sometimes I feel that QW with it's ~20 years of competitive history already solved many of these problems  :P Timers off in-game, timers available when viewing demos.

 

Except you can tell when someone is aimbotting or idk.. strafebotting? But you can't tell if someone has an atomic watch for brain or just an application running on their secondary monitor for timing items. Timing items is an incoherent skill and it lacking is more than acceptable if it means getting a growing playerbase to tag along. IAMPILL put it out nicely, collecting information and being in right places for it is what matters, not how you fucking catalog it lol.

 

This is 2 issues in one: cheating, and game mechanics. You can't avoid cheaters, you can't even detect a good aimbot: some bots don't aim for you, they just nudge your aim a little bit in the right direction so that for example your lighting gun ion cannon hit percentage is a bit better. You can't detect a wall hacker who uses the information intelligently either (there was a recent one in QW who was only caught after some meticulous demo watching). So why does cheating with timers matter specifically? If the community is big enough, this tends to somewhat self-correct anyway by analyzing demos, LANs, self-streaming with a camera pointed at the back of your head and monitor, and with the good players being well-known and well-watched.

 

For game mechanics, why is timing an incoherent skill? Nearly every sport relies on clock management (e.g. when to use timeouts in basketball, how long is a shift in hockey before the players tire out, hell even in chess you need to think about the clock and sometimes make a quick move instead of spending time thinking about a more optimal one, either because you're short on time or even as a strategy to put pressure on your opponent).

 

Cheers,

BD

 

P.S. Lumiera's post and this thread @ http://www.reddit.com/r/ArenaFPS/comments/36eojp/execution_vs_decision_making/ are relevant to the execution versus decision making argument.

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Except you can tell when someone is aimbotting or idk.. strafebotting?

Well, you cant tell if someones cheating, if they know how to hide it. Everyone can spot a retard cheating, no matter is it timer or aimbot. Spotting someone using timers is relatively easy, since human mind is faulty and cannot be 100% perfect and precise constantly. And these illogical arguments about everyone cheats anyway are getting boring. Why not give aimbots aswell, since someone will use it anyways.

 

Keeping track of information is as important as aim and movement. Timing is just a way to have an edge, cypher didn't time at all when he was in godmode in 2008 and that's in vq3. It didn't matter because he outaimed and out fought his enemies at the items anyway.

He did time

 

 

IAMPILL put it out nicely, collecting information and being in right places for it is what matters, not how you fucking catalog it lol.

Its hard to be in right places without knowing when to be and where, thats also timing combined with logical thinking, should we remove these too, since new people dont know where to be and when ?

 

This is starting to feel like arguing with religious fanatic. No matter what you say they dont understand or have will to understand it anyways.

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You can't avoid cheaters, you can't even detect a good aimbot: some bots don't aim for you, they just nudge your aim a little bit in the right direction.

 

..For game mechanics, why is timing an incoherent skill? 

 

..So why does cheating with timers matter specifically?

Very much true, but it's not just a matter of detecting. There are numerous ways to help timing that wouldn't perhaps be even considered cheating, eg. looking at seconds on a clock, accompanied with a notepad file or an image which shows what item spawns specifically after when you pick it up. Maybe they are considered cheating, personally I think seconds on clock helps too much in itself, but I don't know. I don't know what the universal agreement on the subject is, but the bottom line is there is no way of telling if someone uses these or not. This makes it a dubious and incoherent skill to master. Is a player actually a skilled timer or just a smart guy who set up a helpful desktop image? = Incoherence and uncertainty. Same goes for aimbot, sure, but aimbotting is not acceptable in the slightest, in any kind of form and has never been nowhere in the history of online aFPS.

 

And really, if you're allowed to look at seconds on a clock, why shouldn't you be allowed to set timers? What difference does it make other than being more obvious? Is it more skillful if you have a chance of ending up focusing on the remaining time in itself rather than counting seconds? Of all the things arena shooters have to offer, counting seconds is just an annoying extra thing you need to learn. I don't see the value it supposedly adds. Q2 community was smart and dealt with this by allowing and encouraging the usage of timer binds. Reflex is basically experimenting with the same things, just with slightly different approach.

 

This is starting to feel like arguing with religious fanatic. No matter what you say they dont understand or have will to understand it anyways.

 You're the one whining here, so it is in fact you who should do the convincing, not me. And you're the one who's rejecting timers like they're going against every principle of your faith. The irony in this is that you said it yourself, you're thinking and hoping that everyone agrees with this, this being your argument and "definite truth". That doesn't sound like a person with willingness to understand opinions other than their own. 

 

And these illogical arguments about everyone cheats anyway are getting boring. Why not give aimbots aswell, since someone will use it anyways....

 

.....should we remove these too, since new people dont know where to be and when ?

Right, because provocative and rhetorical questioning is a way better and less boring format of arguing. It's as if you're deliberately trying to get this thread locked so you don't have to challenge yourself with other people's opinions.

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Very much true, but it's not just a matter of detecting. There are numerous ways to help timing that wouldn't perhaps be even considered cheating, eg. looking at seconds on a clock, accompanied with a notepad file or an image which shows what item spawns specifically after when you pick it up. Maybe they are considered cheating, personally I think seconds on clock helps too much in itself, but I don't know. I don't know what the universal agreement on the subject is, but the bottom line is there is no way of telling if someone uses these or not. This makes it a dubious and incoherent skill to master. Is a player actually a skilled timer or just a smart guy who set up a helpful desktop image? = Incoherence and uncertainty. Same goes for aimbot, sure, but aimbotting is not acceptable in the slightest, in any kind of form and has never been nowhere in the history of online aFPS.

 

And really, if you're allowed to look at seconds on a clock, why shouldn't you be allowed to set timers? What difference does it make other than being more obvious? Is it more skillful if you have a chance of ending up focusing on the remaining time in itself rather than counting seconds? Of all the things arena shooters have to offer, counting seconds is just an annoying extra thing you need to learn. I don't see the value it supposedly adds. Q2 community was smart and dealt with this by allowing and encouraging the usage of timer binds. Reflex is basically experimenting with the same things, just with slightly different approach.

 

 You're the one whining here, so it is in fact you who should do the convincing, not me. And you're the one who's rejecting timers like they're going against every principle of your faith. The irony in this is that you said it yourself, you're thinking and hoping that everyone agrees with this, this being your argument and "definite truth". That doesn't sound like a person with willingness to understand opinions other than their own. 

 

Right, because provocative and rhetorical questioning is a way better and less boring format of arguing. It's as if you're deliberately trying to get this thread locked so you don't have to challenge yourself with other people's opinions.

Well, ive tried but it looks like it doesnt matter. You cant fight windmills.

 

Im gonna be the smarter one and stop this bullshit, since its been na-ah you, na-ah you kindergarten awesomeness.

 

p.s Im not the one whining over here.

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...personally I think seconds on clock helps too much in itself, but I don't know. I don't know what the universal agreement on the subject is, but the bottom line is there is no way of telling if someone uses these or not. This makes it a dubious and incoherent skill to master. Is a player actually a skilled timer or just a smart guy who set up a helpful desktop image? = Incoherence and uncertainty.

 

No doubt I'm biased from many many (many) years of QW, but it works extremely well with just the single gameclock (with seconds). There hasn't been much if any concern about people cheating with external timers, because the game is so fast-paced that it would be hard and probably counter-productive to manually manage. At some point there was minimal scripting allowed (not automated timers), but even that was disallowed in the tournament ruleset as the community decided it was bad.

 

And really, if you're allowed to look at seconds on a clock, why shouldn't you be allowed to set timers? What difference does it make other than being more obvious? Is it more skillful if you have a chance of ending up focusing on the remaining time in itself rather than counting seconds? Of all the things arena shooters have to offer, counting seconds is just an annoying extra thing you need to learn. I don't see the value it supposedly adds. Q2 community was smart and dealt with this by allowing and encouraging the usage of timer binds. Reflex is basically experimenting with the same things, just with slightly different approach.

 

When the debate first started on these forums, people were angry but then partially appeased when it was (incorrectly) understood that the timers would need to be manually started by hitting a key. This satisfied many people, because you would still have to work to actively control the timers instead of being given information for free. This free and perfect information (ESP) is the crux of the issue for most people, I think. If you work for it, it's not free and it's definitely not perfect. The lack of perfection opens up opportunities.

 

In QW 2on2 and 4on4 communication is often the difference between a good team and an average one. Communication includes item spawns and also (for 4on4) weapon spawns, and how to best communicate is still discussed today (which is an example of depth from a 20 year old game) e.g. in http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/topic/6554/99579/#99579. Part of my post there has examples of how timing affects strategy, and other posts in the thread are interesting too.

 

The thing with team modes is that there is way too much information for any single person to know or process, and responsibilities between teammates overlap, so getting all this free information really devalues communication and how important it is for teamwork. If item information is universally known, it seems to me it would be relatively easy to assemble a team of 4 good individual players and have them do well just by looking at their HUDs, versus needing to assemble a team of good team players who practice together and communicate well with team binds and/or voice.

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