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EternalRage

Execution vs Decision Making

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In reality, it takes no skill, just a certain amount of practise and knowledge.

This might be one of the most retarded claims i've ever read.....like...anywhere on the web. Not only does it make clear you are a freaking elitist deluxe .....i also highly doubt you even know what "skill" is. Do you even READ what you WRITE?! :D I suggest you to look up some definitions of "skill" ....maybe you'll realize how stupid you sound then..... 

but when it comes to CPMA or UT2004 he gets destroyed by me.

Wow! Sick! You so tough man! 

 

...... and you get destroyed by some low-skill plebs in CS. What's your point? I know...you don't have one....but i was like: i can still ask.

Edited by FPSports - A. Benz

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​I think that I, and many others, have stated that doing things to "escape from our niche" would pretty much ruin the concept of AFPS gaming, and there for be pointless. Do you really think mobas will be huge forever? And have they always been this huge? Or do you realize that like any other form of pop culture things go in and out of style, gaining and losing popularity.

​"MOBAS" don't just exist since a few years though .... dota was already highly popular as a mod before the big moba-wave came along. I don't know what you mean by "forever" ....apparently they are already big since dota came out and only got bigger since then .... so they are basically "in" for like 10 years... CS even longer... and so far there's no real sign of them losing any popularity. It's quite the opposite actually.

How long do you want to wait for them to lose popularity? Hoping for miracles won't help. Either you attack...or die.

Also.... " ruin the concept of AFPS gaming"  .... what concept? The one that didn't take off? Or the one that struggles to get 1k players since over 10 years? Don't get me wrong. I understand that people like their games as they are and are apparently toxic to any kind of major change. Quick tip: CPMA etc. aren't gone from the planet.

The thing about new games is that you can IMPROVE in order to gain MORE popularity. What's the point of creating a new game if the same people play it anyways? Esp. if you actually want to earn money and keep developing...... which.....surprise...is what Reflex wants to do.

Crying about how stuff will totally destroy your beloved game .....is just selfish and not exactly how progress is done. But apparently we all know where this game is going anyways....besides some solid signs back a few months ago ...people slowly start realizing that it eventually won't be more than CPMA 2.0. Which is fine. But don't expect any miracles nor wonder if you're stuck at 100 players.

I still hope newborn mans up a little and creates some new interesting gameplay stuff .... but i assume that's rather 2016-stuff. If at all.

I already stated that a massive turn off for players outside our sub genre is the movement system. Would gaining a marginal amount of popularity really be worth nixing our entire movement system? Or heavily watering it down? The movement system is the largest attraction to me for this game. Of course it's a combination of that and the rest of the game that really makes it fun. But without the movement I wouldn't play.

Trust me.... the mechanics of CPMA/Reflex are the last thing hindering success. Ofc it's not everyones cup of tea, but there are way more reasons besides actual gameplay-mechanics (weapon, movement...). Whether you agree or not. Dota2 has a way higher entry-barrier in terms of skill/mechanics. 

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I do not think I (not talking about others) said or tried to imply that cs's gunplay takes less skill. I said the executional aspect of gameplay is made less important by the gun mechanics*, putting a bigger focus on the decision making/the economy. It matters which one of the 20 (or how many there are) different hitscan guns you use even though almost all of them will probably kill an unarmored enemy with, I dunno, maximum 5 or so bullets to the body (2 with headshots). They are balanced via amount of spread per distance. And players who have mastered the various mechanics do dominate. But let's say, if someone removed the bullet spread and made the recoil be 100% consistent for a given gun (=always the same pattern with that gun), surely teams with good execution players (great aim, good recoil control, etc.) would do better? Yes, it would remove a lot of depth (some pistols/SMPs effectively becoming as good as e.g. an AK**) and make for a worse game overall. But the game would become more execution based, which is what this thread is about.

* I've watched quite a number of competitive games (because it's a nice game to watch) and there are numerous instances of the following per game: Let's say the Ts planted the bomb at B on dust2 and one of them is guarding B doors from one of the boxes, with the AK. A CT then enters through the door, and the T starts firing at him, the crosshair on the enemy model. After the first few shots (with no indication that anything hit btw), the crosshair wanders off to the left or the right (player not properly handling the recoil), but the T still gets a kill with one of the next few shots (I guess due to the bullet spread). What is described in the last sentence happens a few times per game, both between Ts and CTs, across maps, players, weapons and teams at the high level. What I take from this is that, on one hand, good execution won't always save you and that on the other hand, lack of execution won't always mean you're dead, even if all the other factors (position, weapon, health/armor stack) between you and your opponent are the same.

** according to this and the table in this, unless there are other mechanics that separate the weapons.

Edited by Mizzu

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I find the CS trash talk in this thread hilarious considering the ex-CS player AZK won both NA and EU #dp_one tournaments last weekend.

With all due respect to AZK, those tournaments were not exactly stacked.

Anyway

People also really need to get over themselves and just chill the fuck out.

 

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I do not think I (not talking about others) said or tried to imply that cs's gunplay takes less skill. I said the executional aspect of gameplay is made less important by the gun mechanics*, putting a bigger focus on the decision making/the economy. It matters which one of the 20 (or how many there are) different hitscan guns you use even though almost all of them will probably kill an unarmored enemy with, I dunno, maximum 5 or so bullets to the body (2 with headshots). They are balanced via amount of spread per distance. And players who have mastered the various mechanics do dominate. But let's say, if someone removed the bullet spread and made the recoil be 100% consistent for a given gun (=always the same pattern with that gun), surely teams with good execution players (great aim, good recoil control, etc.) would do better? Yes, it would remove a lot of depth (some pistols/SMPs effectively becoming as good as e.g. an AK**) and make for a worse game overall. But the game would become more execution based, which is what this thread is about.

* I've watched quite a number of competitive games (because it's a nice game to watch) and there are numerous instances of the following per game: Let's say the Ts planted the bomb at B on dust2 and one of them is guarding B doors from one of the boxes, with the AK. A CT then enters through the door, and the T starts firing at him, the crosshair on the enemy model. After the first few shots (with no indication that anything hit btw), the crosshair wanders off to the left or the right (player not properly handling the recoil), but the T still gets a kill with one of the next few shots (I guess due to the bullet spread). What is described in the last sentence happens a few times per game, both between Ts and CTs, across maps, players, weapons and teams at the high level. What I take from this is that, on one hand, good execution won't always save you and that on the other hand, lack of execution won't always mean you're dead, even if all the other factors (position, weapon, health/armor stack) between you and your opponent are the same.

** according to this and the table in this, unless there are other mechanics that separate the weapons.

​You are right. But for your example...... that's just "horrible" execution :P. At this range you shouldn't need more than 0.5msecs to kill the CT. Anything else is just bad execution. Which happens. People aren't perfect.

And trust me: CS:GO is WAY more execution based than f.e. 1.6 was. In fact teams with good executions do WAY better. Just this weekend NiP got DESTROYED by EnvyUs .... simply because their execution was MILES ahead, hitting 1 shots like some aimbotting kids.

You don't need to remove spread etc. . Team with better skills wins. Easy as that. Removing spread etc. would lower the skill-ceiling regarding execution by a huge %.

 

( and abstracting this logic to Reflex.... that would mean having item timers would make the game more decision based ;) )

Edited by FPSports - A. Benz

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i'm honestly starting to think you are trolling..... simply because i don't wanna imagine you are serious, cuz that'd be just pure freaking sad....

Edited by FPSports - A. Benz

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*snip*

​You know, there's obviously a lot we don't agree on, but there's probably just as much we do agree on, you just make a really hard case for yourself.

You could probably gain a lot more support and understanding out of the people on these forums if you spent your time addressing specific points, rather than vaguely, and rather condescendingly, referring to how CS is a successful series and how AFPS should strive to be more like that. I'm sure you have made plenty of specific arguments, but the majority of what I see from you boils down to "CSGO is way better than you guys give it credit for, it's successful for a reason, and reflex won't be, for the opposite reasons." No specifics, totally ambiguous.

For instance I think one thing we could probably agree on (this is one of those things CS does well, but AFPS doesn't), is that reflex is going to need a more dynamic, objective team mode to really cut it as an esport. It needs that to grow and stay fresh. There are probably plenty of ego strokers out there that think duel is the end all beat all of skill. But honestly nothing stagnates a competitive community faster than dueling. TDM likewise won't cut it. It's not spectator friendly, the depth and tatics involved are not at all apparent on a visual level. Even if they were you're just not really going to get the general gaming population interested just "the most kills win". Unfortunately I think CTF sits in a very similar position. It's definitely my favorite game mode, but I don't think it will cut it. If reflex wants to get people interested in AFPS, it's going to need something new, and interesting.

Basically go ahead and be condescending and think every one here is a fool. But if you're really interested in seeing a change in AFPS, start discussing reflex instead of CS. At the very least make more specific correlations between the two, so as to further the reflex discussion.

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but CoD is the real enemy of eSports here and we should belittle it with all of our efforts instead.

​Call of Duty is the best fps ever, and is what a true gamer would want.

Call of Duty uses the most advanced game engine in the industry.
It runs at a consistent 60fps and at full HD 1080p. No other engine can do this.

Call of Duty also has the best writers in the industry to write the amazing singelplayer campaign.

Call of Duty was also the first fps to ever hit the marked.

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If reflex wants to get people interested in AFPS, it's going to need something new, and interesting.

Basically go ahead and be condescending and think every one here is a fool. But if you're really interested in seeing a change in AFPS, start discussing reflex instead of CS. At the very least make more specific correlations between the two, so as to further the reflex discussion.

​In an effort to put this topic back on track I agree we need something new.  We haven't seen anything truly new gameplay wise in Reflex yet and that scares me.  I'd say Reflex has even been simplified with things such as no ammo packs.  I like the concept of KISS but sometimes complexity is needed.  Reflex would benefit from new gameplay which is not directly from CPMA, Quake, Painkiller, etc.  I'm sure it would cause a big up roar and kick the trolls into over drive but I think change is needed.

I think a lot of the weak decision making in AFPS as of late is due to how solved they are.  Most of these games have close to pure solutions and have not changed much over the years.  Mixed solutions are much more interesting and keep players adapting and reacting to each other much more.  I also strongly believe making execution less of a dominant factor would be a massive improvement for most AFPS.  In most AFPS if your execution skills are better you can ignore the rest of the gameplay which is beyond silly.  You need not take items or armors if you can significantly out aim or move your opponent in a duel.

I think AFPS pride themselves on how strong execution is in this genre but I also think it is a big reason no one plays these games anymore.  There is no alternative to beat someone who hits 70% rail or 50% LG.  Either you need to nearly match their aim or you lose.  Other gameplay elements should matter and offer paths to victory.  Decisions should be fuzzy and not a solved boring non-choice.

Here is a related article which talks about pure solutions and mixed solutions:

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/solvability

I hope people take a few minutes to read it.

Edited by Fastidious

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​You know, there's obviously a lot we don't agree on, but there's probably just as much we do agree on, you just make a really hard case for yourself.

You could probably gain a lot more support and understanding out of the people on these forums if you spent your time addressing specific points, rather than vaguely, and rather condescendingly, referring to how CS is a successful series and how AFPS should strive to be more like that. I'm sure you have made plenty of specific arguments, but the majority of what I see from you boils down to "CSGO is way better than you guys give it credit for, it's successful for a reason, and reflex won't be, for the opposite reasons." No specifics, totally ambiguous.

For instance I think one thing we could probably agree on (this is one of those things CS does well, but AFPS doesn't), is that reflex is going to need a more dynamic, objective team mode to really cut it as an esport. It needs that to grow and stay fresh. There are probably plenty of ego strokers out there that think duel is the end all beat all of skill. But honestly nothing stagnates a competitive community faster than dueling. TDM likewise won't cut it. It's not spectator friendly, the depth and tatics involved are not at all apparent on a visual level. Even if they were you're just not really going to get the general gaming population interested just "the most kills win". Unfortunately I think CTF sits in a very similar position. It's definitely my favorite game mode, but I don't think it will cut it. If reflex wants to get people interested in AFPS, it's going to need something new, and interesting.

Basically go ahead and be condescending and think every one here is a fool. But if you're really interested in seeing a change in AFPS, start discussing reflex instead of CS. At the very least make more specific correlations between the two, so as to further the reflex discussion.

Hey,

don't get me wrong.... it's clear as day that you can't take CS:GO as an example on why Reflex will/won't succeed. In fact i STRONGLY believe that Reflex WILL succeed EVEN with the current gameplay .... it just needs a really fun gamemode, as you stated later.... which i also stated before in some other threads....ofc this all gets lost in this thread.

And tbh i was mad as fuck because of this troll Raidaak ...

But i think it's clear as day that some people simply don't give CS enough credit. That's something you can't deny i hope. 

"condescending" .... "elitists"....we are a sweet little community, right ;).

If you want...i can write a freaking big text comparing CS to Reflex and what could be done to save the future of AFPS.... ofc in my opinion. In a new thread, since this is highly off-topic. I already wanted to do it...but i simply fear it'll end in a big shit-storm anyways, just like this thread kinda went.... which is ofc partly my fault as well. I'm simply a hardcore passionate person and i'm usually pretty reasonable....but if someone simply shows no sign of slightest understanding like the troll in here did...i can get quite infuriated.

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I think this game would do well to add something new to the "template" that has existed for so long.  I really hope they are trying things in secret.

Let's not forget how extremely well done Reflex is right now.  The net code is impossibly good.  The hud implementation is fantastic.  The mouse-feel is much better than any other game I've tried.  It's doing DM right now, about as good as it can be done.  Bringing it up-to-date in a new engine. 

I would have easily dropped $100.00 on this game, but...

...something new needs to happen IMO.

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​"MOBAS" don't just exist since a few years though .... dota was already highly popular as a mod before the big moba-wave came along. I don't know what you mean by "forever" ....apparently they are already big since dota came out and only got bigger since then .... so they are basically "in" for like 10 years... CS even longer... and so far there's no real sign of them losing any popularity. It's quite the opposite actually.

​Your average person, video game player or otherwise, didn't know about DotA Allstars or any of the other offshoots pre-HoN, or even arguably pre-Leage-explosion

Additionally you're forgetting the lifespan of other genres/subgenres. DOOM came out in '93. The last big circuit Quake Live matches happened less than 5 years ago. There also hasn't been a major update to that formula in quite a while (CS had Source with some fairly substantial engine updates over time and GO came out recently. The last Quake game that was intentionally based around Online Play according to Carmack was Quake 3. Q3's re-release as Quake Live was actually decently successful in terms of bringing back attention, but it wasn't even equivalent to CS:GO in terms of what it was there for.) Starcraft came out in 1998 and SC2 is steadily losing players but is still in esports circuits

DotA imitators are already hitting the saturation point MMO's hit ages ago. We're also seeing a lot of stagnation in the genre. We're seeing a lot of the same symptoms MMO's had when they really peaked

CS:GO was already losing attention, Starcraft 2 style, and kinda lucked out with its more recent resurgence

 the crosshair on the enemy model. After the first few shots (with no indication that anything hit btw), the crosshair wanders off to the left or the right (player not properly handling the recoil), but the T still gets a kill with one of the next few shots (I guess due to the bullet spread).

​That's not crosshair wandering, that's the player compensating for recoil.

For whatever reason, CS has managed to get away with having a recoil system that essentially involves your gun shooting a pattern without actually adjusting your crosshair or gun position on the screen. Instead you have to intentionally move your gun away from the target, as the actual shot location has changed

IIRC Red Orchestra has a similar sort of recoil system, but actually has the gun move away from the target to provide visual representation of significant recoil

 

And trust me: CS:GO is WAY more execution based than f.e. 1.6 was. In fact teams with good executions do WAY better. Just this weekend NiP got DESTROYED by EnvyUs .... simply because their execution was MILES ahead, hitting 1 shots like some aimbotting kids.

You don't need to remove spread etc. . Team with better skills wins. Easy as that. Removing spread etc. would lower the skill-ceiling regarding execution by a huge %.

 

( and abstracting this logic to Reflex.... that would mean having item timers would make the game more decision based ;) )

​In what way is GO more execution focused than 1.6? One team getting lots of headshots? You know that's also possible in 1.6 right?

As for removing spread, there's slight randomization that honestly doesn't add to the skill ceiling in scenarios where everyone is going to be pretty on-the-ball headshot-wise, but instead creates scenarios where actual accuracy results in a miss. Removing recoil would be an issue though, as it would make the game easier than CoD

And as for your comment about item timers, you still have to make decisions with or without timers, but you have to make them without intel when you don't have timers. This is why item timers being added was/is supposed to come with a compensating feature, at least that's what I remember being stated

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​In what way is GO more execution focused than 1.6? One team getting lots of headshots? You know that's also possible in 1.6 right?

​....... and you know that in 1.6 you'd compensate for your lack of aim way better than in CS:GO, right? Less possibilities for compensation -> higher emphasis on execution. Pretty straight forward. Neo isn't the top player he was in 1.6 for a reason..... it's because his execution regarding aim etc. never was THAT awesome, but rather in other areas. Movement, outplaying etc. etc. . All this stuff matters less in CSGO -> he is a "worse" player.

Tbh i don't even wanna discuss that more.

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​In an effort to put this topic back on track I agree we need something new.  We haven't seen anything truly new gameplay wise in Reflex yet and that scares me.  I'd say Reflex has even been simplified with things such as no ammo packs.  I like the concept of KISS but sometimes complexity is needed.  Reflex would benefit from new gameplay which is not directly from CPMA, Quake, Painkiller, etc.  I'm sure it would cause a big up roar and kick the trolls into over drive but I think change is needed.

I think a lot of the weak decision making in AFPS as of late is due to how solved they are.  Most of these games have close to pure solutions and have not changed much over the years.  Mixed solutions are much more interesting and keep players adapting and reacting to each other much more.  I also strongly believe making execution less of a dominant factor would be a massive improvement for most AFPS.  In most AFPS if your execution skills are better you can ignore the rest of the gameplay which is beyond silly.  You need not take items or armors if you can significantly out aim or move your opponent in a duel.

I think AFPS pride themselves on how strong execution is in this genre but I also think it is a big reason no one plays these games anymore.  There is no alternative to beat someone who hits 70% rail or 50% LG.  Either you need to nearly match their aim or you lose.  Other gameplay elements should matter and offer paths to victory.  Decisions should be fuzzy and not a solved boring non-choice.

Here is a related article which talks about pure solutions and mixed solutions:

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/solvability

I hope people take a few minutes to read it.

​I actually disagree that Quake is solved. You have two priorities in Quake, namely your own stack and your opponent's stack, and it's often unclear which one takes precedence. That's why you can have a player like Cypher who deliberately sacrifices item pickups to deal damage in control and to avoid damage out of control, while at the same time there are players like Evil who challenge for everything regardless of their own stack.

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​I actually disagree that Quake is solved. You have two priorities in Quake, namely your own stack and your opponent's stack, and it's often unclear which one takes precedence. That's why you can have a player like Cypher who deliberately sacrifices item pickups to deal damage in control and to avoid damage out of control, while at the same time there are players like Evil who challenge for everything regardless of their own stack.

​I never said it was solved, however there are very few choices to make and usually most are straight forward.  If you have superior execution skills often it is clear cut and there are no choices at all; unless you want to toy with your prey.  AFPS seem to only be decent games when you are near evenly matched in execution skills which is a shame especially since such even matches are rare.

Let us go back to what you said about Hal.

 

Hal had a very interesting take on it. He said the aim/brain divide is a myth and that your execution determines what kind of decisions you can and can't make. I think that pretty much hits the nail on its head. You're not gonna setup a one in a million rail if you have trouble hitting the easy ones.

​I strongly agree with Hal.  Execution is what determines how you can play.  There is very little outside of that which has such a big impact on the game.  I would rather the game was balanced so other game elements had a much larger impact.  I wish items/etc for instance were completely changed so if I could control or manipulate them in certain ways I could beat someone who significantly out aims me.  Such play was possible in the 90s but no additional mechanics have been added since then and the gameplay is now very well understood.  Back then stratagems such as syncing items times or delaying items was not common except at higher levels of play.  Average players know about all these tricks now along with general information such as item times.  I just wish balance was changed so things such as decision making, teamplay, item control, etc could trump someone with "mad skills" (aka great execution).

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​....... and you know that in 1.6 you'd compensate for your lack of aim way better than in CS:GO, right? Less possibilities for compensation -> higher emphasis on execution. Pretty straight forward. Neo isn't the top player he was in 1.6 for a reason..... it's because his execution regarding aim etc. never was THAT awesome, but rather in other areas. Movement, outplaying etc. etc. . All this stuff matters less in CSGO -> he is a "worse" player.

Tbh i don't even wanna discuss that more.

​So you're arguing that the added intentional unreliability creates a scenario where execution (read: the thing being made more unreliable) needs to be relied on more? I wouldn't call that particularly straightforward unless we're looking at performance over a larger sample size (Player A is hitting X% more than Player B over 100 matches because he's aiming more consistently on target and isn't letting that 5%+ randomization doing any work for him, therefore his execution is being rewarded)

Also movement matters less in GO because it's been butchered. I'd call movement part of execution though, which is yet another point where I'm finding myself disagreeing that CS:GO is more execution-based

 

Additionally I agree with FDA in that I think creating solid suggestions would be a more productive use of everyone's time than what's been happening in a good chunk of this thread.

​I never said it was solved, however there are very few choices to make and usually most are straight forward.  If you have superior execution skills often it is clear cut and there are no choices at all; unless you want to toy with your prey.  AFPS seem to only be decent games when you are near evenly matched in execution skills which is a shame especially since such even matches are rare.

​With regards to even matches, I've found it pretty decent during periods of growth as well. When my friends and I first started playing it was pretty awful since our matches were slow and plodding, and people kept spamming rocket launchers and a few people got pissy about some of the more obvious counters to that, but we started hitting the point where we'd begin to specialize in different aspects of the game and try to find ways to counter each other. Sadly this period didn't last very long because only a few of us continued to practice (some people didn't have the time, others didn't have the motivation). We definitely didnt all level out, but matches were interesting because of where emphasis was placed on the part of each player, and the beginning of tendencies towards different maps that would have been great if it had properly developed.

With regards to your reddit post and overall posts within the thread, I could definitely see a game with a small dedicated community and adherence to a small pool of maps for a decade+ feeling very repetitive, but even beyond that, are you sure you aren't enjoying 7 Days to Die and Europa Universalis because they're quite a lot newer than Quake is? I know people who find decision making in those games fairly average because they have a lot of hours put into their respective genres, but will find something I find fairly average to be new and exciting. I remember having a fairly drawn out discussion with a friend who became infatuated with Starcraft 2 and found FPS' boring and simplistic. The issue was he kept playing exactly the same sort of FPS. It would almost invariably be a class-based ability-focused game with low mobility and simple objectives. Similarly there are RTS' out there with a lot more options and a lot more granularity to those options than Starcraft

With regards to Reflex and it's development though, I don't think it's a terribly unpopular notion that the game could benefit greatly from getting a few mechanics to set itself apart. I also wouldn't mind seeing a few features directly lifted from other games (been watching Kovaak's Quake duel guide and there's a few mechanics/map features there that I find really neat) and a greater emphasis on 4-8 player modes (even though I started playing CPM for duel and it's been as close to a focus as I have)

 

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