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Reflex 0.36.0 - Cofe Time for in talk English

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Fark the new videos and screenshots look good. Time for a big advertising push after .37 imo. (I realise you probably have no money left, so maybe we can all help with that.) If this + CTF + matchmaking doesn't excite the nubcakes, nothing will.

yes, people still want a playable tutorial, bots and a feature to download and watch demos from in-game...

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Suprisingly I really like the new BDM3.. I'm really excited to see more maps in such detailed look. Not sure if I like the gameplay changes on BDM3. It somehow annoys me how most updates only nerf weapons and slow down combat. But yea, maybe the new BDM3 is more balanced. What I'd like to see in future are smoothing groups (for shading) on curved surfaces (for example on the barrel of the rocketlauncher and also on  curved walls in the map). Also the boltrifle model could need some redesign imo.. or just keep it like it  is and add a model/item-drop-system^^

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​Right, because it doesn't look like it was advertised. If people wanted to play Warsow, they could of done that instead. Now don't be surprised that some people are complaining.

​Um judging from the amount of people online yesterday having a shit-ton of fun, playing REFLEX, I'm gonna go ahead and say no. Also, an Alpha game is still in development, which gives the developers license to do whatever they want. The majority of the community approves, and the devs continue to take note of their requests and accommodate them as well as they see fit in order to better the game.

In addition, I'd say what was released yesterday looks a-lot like the sci-fi design from their original concepts........

SBSB.jpg

Edited by Gangland

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One question about liquids though: now lava is whole orange, water is all blue, slime is fully green.

no moving liquids aspect anymore. will there be some update on this in the future?​

We've got some liquid effects planned. We should actually be able to do some cool stuff with it because of our low-poly art style. Things like having it react to players etc.​

​Actually back to this subject, here's some reference from Xonotic for effects and ideas in case you haven't gone through it already.

Looks nice and obvious enough on my no-surface/picmip settings as well. Little bit of transparency for liquids is the key imo and if you wanna go crazy add in some reflection effects too for high settings-people. Pardon my development effort ignorance, but that would be cool.

Edited by Smilecythe

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yes, people still want a playable tutorial, bots and a feature to download and watch demos from in-game...

​Yep, .37 was probably a bit optimistic. I don't think demo downloading is essential for new players, but I agree about the tutorial. Bots would be ideal (I loved them in Q3 as an afps newbie) but I don't know if that's a realistic hope any time soon. But yeah I don't mean that it's all perfect now, just that it's coming along nicely and should be ready for playerbase growth pretty soon.

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Bug with brush colouring when using shift+M:

Put down a new brush. Select any material (e.g. that bright green metal), give it a custom colour. Shift+M each face to paste the custom colour. When you get to the 6th face, all applications of the material on that brush will revert to the default colour (bright green).

I've seen this happen in as little as pasting on 3 faces, meaning that putting custom colours on brushes has become an infuriating experience.

[not sure if it matters if the brush is non-standard (more than 6 faces), but it seems that working with different kinds of brushes that sometimes it takes 3, sometimes 4, sometimes more times before the colours bug out]

=====

Regarding mesh scaling: I would like to see independent x-y-z scaling.

A common experience I find is that <<oh if only that concrete tile was a tiny bit longer it would fit that wall nicely>>. The hack solution of course is to overlap the tiles, but this will not work cleanly with every mesh.

It would also help to stretch out pipes, so that (e.g.) if a pipeline goes from one end of a room to another the mapper does not have to connect 15 pipe meshes together (just put 1 and scale it along z-axis or whatever), and thereby reduce mesh count (possibly increasing performance).

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Keter,

the pipe scaling/stretching is a good example, if the pipe is only a cylinder mesh. But usually the pipes are an assortment of several "meshes", like connection pieces and braces to connect the pipes to the walls etc. Scaling such meshes in only one direction would look really bad, because not only the pipe but everything else in that mesh would be scaled. This is the equivalent of texture stretching (an amateur mapping error)... looks as bad if not even worse for stretched meshes. And boy do I foresee many beginner maps misusing such a feature.

The "tile was a tiny bit longer it would fit that wall nicely" is actually flawed thinking, IMO. The tile should have been on grid and perfectly fitting to begin with. If not, then something else was previously messed up, e.g. one of the other tiles on that wall is already *off* grid. Slightly stretching the gap, at least in my view, would be a horrendous mapping hack. I have seen a few cases of this happening in BDM3, and overlapping meshes seems to be possible, without z-fighting being obvious... but personally I'd prefer sticking to no-overlap clean mapping... even though "bashing meshes together" can be done.

Note: I am all for an extra degree of flexibility, but not at any cost. Maybe that is just old-school me though.

It only just occurred to me, why my point would be of any relevance: just build the map as ugly as you like as long as it looks OK and does not flicker or have visible unintended gaps? For one reason, Reflex allows for multiplayer mapping. I had pretty much forgotten about this completely. Now imagine several folks working on a map, and everyone scaling meshes all over the place, the other mappers will have a ball when later on in the project trying to fix anything in the map. Thus the importance of staying on grid where possible. Or a simpler reason: should you the mapper want to expand / fix / update your own map, ugly/unclean mapping will take up and waste a huge amount of time to fix.

Edited by AEon

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AEon, yes you are correct in pointing out that independent scaling will come with a host of issues.

However, a map that has a lot of angled walls (as BDM3 does) will have a lot of non-standard numbers that are unpleasant for 64x64 or 128x128 tiles. Having them on-grid and perfectly fitting in those situations is not possible.

The author of BDM3 solved this by hiding a lot of left-over tile completely outside of the visible map.

That may be suitable when the angled wall closes on another wall, but a lot of time it does not. Examples are at the ion cannon area and the shotgun area.

- at the ion, a gap in the wall between 2 tiles is concealed by a vertical pipe

- behind that wall, at the +5 bubbles, the tiles simply stop and a gap remains

- the wall at the shotgun is left totally bare

[I am not suggesting that the author did these because they were uncomfortable about gaps. These examples work as intentional design decisions and they are aesthetically nice. I use them only as examples to illustrate what I am talking about]

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Keter,

true... I think most of the issues can still be solved by increasing the tile set (more tile variants, e.g. triangular tiles). But it will be interesting as the game progresses and we get more experience using meshes to learn how such issues can be solved. One way I used in Q3A with "cube module" was to create all the "rooms" as multiples of 64u... the trouble with BDM3 probably was that it was never meant to used with tiles, so a lot of clever tinkering had to be done.

If one plans a map with tiles in mind from the start a lot of problems probably can be avoided. Even though I created a map for Far Cry that used meshes a lot, I never got around to doing so on a large scale, e.g. for UT2K3 and beyond engines. So it will be interesting to see how that works out.

I have three Reflex maps that might turn into interesting mesh-plastered versions at some point. Though I am holding off, hoping for a bit more niceties regarding work flow and editor functionality.

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Keter,

the pipe scaling/stretching is a good example, if the pipe is only a cylinder mesh. But usually the pipes are an assortment of several "meshes", like connection pieces and braces to connect the pipes to the walls etc. Scaling such meshes in only one direction would look really bad, because not only the pipe but everything else in that mesh would be scaled. This is the equivalent of texture stretching (an amateur mapping error)... looks as bad if not even worse for stretched meshes. And boy do I foresee many beginner maps misusing such a feature.

The "tile was a tiny bit longer it would fit that wall nicely" is actually flawed thinking, IMO. The tile should have been on grid and perfectly fitting to begin with. If not, then something else was previously messed up, e.g. one of the other tiles on that wall is already *off* grid. Slightly stretching the gap, at least in my view, would be a horrendous mapping hack. I have seen a few cases of this happening in BDM3, and overlapping meshes seems to be possible, without z-fighting being obvious... but personally I'd prefer sticking to no-overlap clean mapping... even though "bashing meshes together" can be done.

Note: I am all for an extra degree of flexibility, but not at any cost. Maybe that is just old-school me though.

It only just occurred to me, why my point would be of any relevance: just build the map as ugly as you like as long as it looks OK and does not flicker or have visible unintended gaps? For one reason, Reflex allows for multiplayer mapping. I had pretty much forgotten about this completely. Now imagine several folks working on a map, and everyone scaling meshes all over the place, the other mappers will have a ball when later on in the project trying to fix anything in the map. Thus the importance of staying on grid where possible. Or a simpler reason: should you the mapper want to expand / fix / update your own map, ugly/unclean mapping will take up and waste a huge amount of time to fix.

​Just think of something which isn't static on at least two axes and scale it on one of those axes (a fan for example), the animation would be pretty fucked up. That's enough reason to not get started on that.

​I'm a retard

​Did you ever see a concept car? It never turns out like that. That's why it's called a concept. If you now want to go and post shit about every car manufacturer because their cars don't look like the concept ones, go ahead, i'll be just fine as long as they release good cars.

That slacker Electro made that map in the past few weeks + a bunch of meshes which weren't even used, not the past 9 months. Maybe if you paid attention to the game you'd actually know something about it and not just make up bullshit. If you don't like the direction the game is heading cut your losses and leave, you paid for Early Access, you don't pay for Early Access if you can't handle the game taking a direction which you might not like.
Also get ready for the next QL update which is basically Bethesda burying the game, we'll see how many people will still be playing after that.

I'm a retard

​If Q3 looked anywhere near as good as Reflex none of us would be here.

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Removed verzons ragequit and blocked him from posting. Expressing disappointment is fine -- it's a big change. Being a fuckwit is never fine, and will get you banned.

If he signs up again, please don't bother replying to him. It's only 2 clicks for me to remove his account and everything it posted -- clearing out replies just makes it harder ;)

Edited by newborn

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Removed verzons ragequit and blocked him from posting. Expressing disappointment is fine -- it's a big change. Being a fuckwit is never fine, and will get you banned.

If he signs up again, please don't bother replying to him. It's only 2 clicks for me to remove his account and everything it posted -- clearing out replies just makes it harder ;)

​I love you.

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