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Reflex 0.37.0 - Mostly eggplant

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I may even just revert it entirely to 0.36 values and stop making any kind of public changes to the movement until the entire system is considered "done" (including ramp fixes, wall clipping, flag drag, crouching, etc). To say that will be disappointing is an understatement, but the hostility about any kind of changes unfortunately make this look like the right thing to do.

​One of the greatest things I always loved about Quake was how it remained relatively stable and unchanging.  It was up to us as the players to counter each other's gameplay advancements with our own.  It was a struggle and sometimes we felt X, Y or Z was broken or too strong but eventually players always found ways to make the game work.  I think what you are seeing is how Quake players hate change because we play a lot and become familiar with our game over time.  I know Reflex isn't Quake but I definitely think people will say a lot less when things are set in stone and not in a state of flux.  Also when things are open to change people will try their hardest to get their own preferences implemented.  When gameplay keeps changing (especially something as practice intensive as movement) it messes up our personal struggle to get better and we fucking hate that.

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The gravity changes, making it easier to perform the stairjumps etc I dont mind! However, as some other people have pointed out the reduced aircontrol and the fact tha the game actually is SLOWER is what is bothering me. Before you were basicly constantly around 500 - 600 ups in a duel, where as now actually getting to 600 on most duel maps is quite a challange! Overall the changes seem to be positive tho, and Im glad to hear youre considering the critisism! Dont overwork yourselves and keep up the good work!

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Primarily, the movement is a result of testing the gravity changes. For now, I'm happy with how the gravity is feeling. I'm enjoying the extra midairs, I'm liking how it's easier to "read" what's going on when a player is airbourne etc.

But of course, changing gravity (like changing anything), requires the entire movement system to be rebalanced. If it was left untouched, the game would have been as noticeably faster than 0.36 with previously difficult jumps becoming trivial (for example, you could circlejump to the CPM22 RA with very little effort and the extra air time gave extra acceleration etc).

Not only would this have been generally worse for the game overall, it would have instantly ruined CTF for everyone except the faster player in the server. I'll be tweaking values closer to what they were in 36 for 37.2 (although I really, really don't have the time and kind of wanted to sleep).

I may even just revert it entirely to 0.36 values and stop making any kind of public changes to the movement until the entire system is considered "done" (including ramp fixes, wall clipping, flag drag, crouching, etc). To say that will be disappointing is an understatement, but the hostility about any kind of changes unfortunately make this look like the right thing to do.

​I think most people are okay with what you did given that you changed gravity
but why did you change gravity?
like if you want players to be more predictable in the air there are much better ways to do that than to change something that people are accustomed to never changing (ironically, the most immediately obvious is changing from reflex airstrafing to cpm airstrafing).

I think the greatest strength of the cpm style movement was that it felt like, as a player, that the player was in control of where there were going more than any other afps, changing the movement has really affected that feeling because it feels different and wonky and it no longer feels like, as a player, you're in control which really fucks up defraggers/ reflex runners (what term are we going with?).

Which means that if the movement is left unchanged from the 0.37 patch level, then eventually most people will stop complaining BUT I think you guys need to reevaluate why you made the change in the first place and whether that change is actually worth it

does the change increase the fun of the game? (and for the player vs player events is it fun on both the giving and receiving end)
does it increase or decrease the skill cap?
does the change make some aspects of the game trivial or boring ?
does the change break the game as we know it? (I would say the movement change falls under this question)
does the change actually affect the game?

and then of course ask: "Why?" because the why might be more important than the actual change itself or one of the questions you've asked.

IMO the movement changes make the game unnecessarily floaty and I don't think that airshots need to be "easier," I think the most immediate parallel I can draw for the movement change is smash 4 vs melee movement cause some of the changes are kind of similar.

I think something else you should realize is that different people like different games, LoL became immensely popular because it catered to a large, low skill audience and, I think, game play at higher levels suffers for it.

Anyway, I have been your annoying forum guy that doesn't actually play that much ;p

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Pretty significant update so I feel like giving my two cents about the changes that affect my experience as a player:

  • New carnage effect is much better, very easy to distinguish as opposed to the old effect which arguably could've been confusing with the whole player outlines thing
  • Excited to see a new melee model, hoping you have plans for some sort of microtransaction system where you can buy/trade different melees etc
  • Really like the hero lighting; admittedly I'll miss the player outlines, but I can understand removing them if it caused technical issues
  • CTF - Fantastic mode, cool maps, great competitive potential. However, I feel like this mode is the most in need of matchmaking, because pubbing with no communication and more players than suitable (there are servers that are allowing up to 8 players per team when as far as I know 4v4 is the standard format?) isn't really enjoyable for me when coming from games like CSGO and TF2 where there are competitive formats, standards, systems etc.
  • New hitboxes are pretty great, was testing them with a friend earlier today and they are really damn accurate which is a breath of fresh air compared to a lot of other MP games.
  • CTF-Monolith is pretty laggy for me performance-wise so I haven't been able to play it yet. This is the only map where it's like this so far though, every other map runs really smooth for me.
  • thct7 looks so sick now. Best duel map out there right now in my opinion.
  • New movement feels pretty solid and way more suited to the maps if you ask me. Before it felt like I was able to go so fast that I wasn't able to maintain control of my travels through maps like thcdm13, dp5, thct7 etc. In general I'm not a fan of the whole "keep everything like CPMA as much as possible idea" approach, I feel like this game should be able to stand on it's own two feet. Slowing the pace down (whether that be through movement or other means) isn't always such a bad thing, especially for team games where you need to be in-sync with eachother; not to mention spectator-wise also. I agree that the movement could probably still use some work and obviously I don't want it to change too drastically, but I'm generally happy with how it feels at the moment and would prefer it to stay more like this rather than more like the old style (as if the difference is even that big anyway :p)
Edited by PJC

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  • Excited to see a new melee model, hoping you have plans for some sort of microtransaction system where you can buy/trade different melees etc

Lets pretend we all did not read that, and the devs neither :ph34r:...  but for the "axe" and Carnage...  it might be an interesting opportunity for some diversity in the models, depending on the style of the map. E.g. Carnage skull = Gothic maps, Carnage Reflex logo = Industrial/SF maps, Carnage samurai sword (or something) = Japanese maps... and for the axe = Gothic, Lightsaber = SF, Sword = Japanese maps, ... and the worldspawn would let the mapper define the name of the map's style.

Just to name some ideas... I am not suggesting this for the other weapons... but for Carnage and the Axe this might be fun and doable workload-wise. The last time I remember a game having fun with weapon models was Daikatana... where the whole weapon set changed from episode to episode (overkill IMO).

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YEEEEEEEEEE
CTF-Monolith was a collaborative effort between Blazedillon, Warlord Wossman and myself.
My part of it was the visuals and some layout changes, but the credits of the layout mostly goes to those two :)
Enjoy C T F​​​

​Thanks PromEUs but it wouldn't have finished more than a block out if it weren't for you. Fantastic job on it and I'm very grateful Wossman and yourself pushed my design this far!

here is a showmatch if u wanna show somebody reflex ctf

 

 

​And thank you for the video! :)

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​Actually, nothing changed between 0.37.0/.1 and 0.37.2 in regards to movement.
Source: newborn

​When i read the chatlog this morning everyone was shure stuff changed. Proves even more that all these movement change are minimal or Placebo anyway.

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Lets pretend we all did not read that, and the devs neither :ph34r:...  but for the "axe" and Carnage...  it might be an interesting opportunity for some diversity in the models, depending on the style of the map. E.g. Carnage skull = Gothic maps, Carnage Reflex logo = Industrial/SF maps, Carnage samurai sword (or something) = Japanese maps... and for the axe = Gothic, Lightsaber = SF, Sword = Japanese maps, ... and the worldspawn would let the mapper define the name of the map's style.

The first one would just make it confusing for new players. The second would get in the way of a cosmetic business model.

 

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Proves even more that all these movement change are minimal or Placebo anyway.

​Mmm, definitely not. the change from .36 to .37 is very noticeable. It's feels worse and worse the more I play around with it. At the moment, I don't really think it's terrible, but I really don't like it either. Doesn't feel good, and isn't fun.

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I'm so disappointed that the devs don't care about race/movement maps at all. People spend their time creating content for your game and in return you throw all of it in the trash with these unit size/movement changes.

Can't even revert to an older version, so I might as well uninstall.

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Am I the only one that doesn't care much about the movement changes? I don't think it's bad... or good either really, it's just a little different.

I'm so disappointed that the devs don't care about race/movement maps at all. People spend their time creating content for your game and in return you throw all of it in the trash with these unit size/movement changes.

Can't even revert to an older version, so I might as well uninstall.

​Boo freaking hoo, game is in alpha, the devs need to be able to try new stuff sometimes

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I'm so disappointed that the devs don't care about race/movement maps at all. People spend their time creating content for your game and in return you throw all of it in the trash with these unit size/movement changes.

Can't even revert to an older version, so I might as well uninstall.

jadrmbywyt.png

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i have to say, i love the new gravity! the game feels so much less cartoony and floaty now, it's awesome. no more rabid running around like a horny bunny on coke.

the player models look almost ridiculously tall now. :]  hero lighting is great. ctf is great (i miss runes tho'). team colors are great. the art and graphics are (much to my surprise) also looking really good! but.. the framerate is still relatively shit though. :] i guess amd card owners are cursed when it comes to fps games performance optimization, as reflex isn't the only case.

all in all, great work.

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