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StillBlaze

Default weapon! Discussion

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Im just curious about some opinions after one year almost of Reflex what people think about this still? I only have about 100 hours mostly through the first months so im not qualified to form a final opinion on it. I come to play CTF on Reflex for the first time load into the populated server in Europe, no surprise the map is Spider Crossing everything feels and looks nice and then im reminded of the default weapon and that im meant to actually fire it in some game modes ((

Any videos or posts specifically on it and how its used. good bad ect?

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Well its a projectile so you have to lead it a bit. The closer you are the better as you can do more damage if you land all 3 pellets. For a player that's just spawned take 3 full shots + 1 pellet to kill him with the burst gun, which really isn't that hard if your close to him or behind him. It's not as bad as people think it is, you just need to learn to lead it, and get close enough to land a full shot.

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I understand that it's your spawn weapon, but I don't understand why it has to be the shittiest weapon in all aspects.  I don't like that it's never usefull. In my opinion it should get replaced by stakegun.

​Stakegun would deal too much damage for a spawnweapon, it would almost turn into instagib. It adds a somewhat more 'random' factor to the game imo, which is bad.

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​Stakegun would deal too much damage for a spawnweapon, it would almost turn into instagib. It adds a somewhat more 'random' factor to the game imo, which is bad.


It's not random since it's a projectile weapon which you can dodge. It would force the in-control player to play more careful and to be aware of his own stack. 100 HP aren't much and can still survive 1 stake. It would just make it harder to continiously keep up an unbalanced advantage. It would make the game more fair and interessting. Shotgun is easier to hit and ideally it should deal 100 dmg on close range. Bolt is hitscan so that one is better, too. Maybe make stakegun deal ~60 dmg.

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It's not random since it's a projectile weapon which you can dodge. It would force the in-control player to play more careful and to be aware of his own stack. 100 HP aren't much and can still survive 1 stake. It would just make it harder to continiously keep up an unbalanced advantage. It would make the game more fair and interessting. Shotgun is easier to hit and ideally it should deal 100 dmg on close range. Bolt is hitscan so that one is better, too. Maybe make stakegun deal ~60 dmg.

​As amipill said, it'd actually be unfair if you manage to control everything, but have that partly nullified because your opponent will spawn with a really strong weapon anyway.

And the shotgun is powerful enough, 100 damage would be far too much imo.

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​The whole point of duelling is to maintain an unbalance. 

​There's unbalance and there's a cliff. Quake itself has a hard enough time retaining new players with a machine gun with decent range and accuracy, no idea why they thought it needed making any shitter unless design decisions are made based on listening to 2hardcore4u vets. The unfunness of the burst gun is amplified in ctf where there's so much more competition for items.

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In quakelive shotgun deals 100 damage on close range and it's good, because you can counter LG and rockets, just how it should be. Rockets are good for spaming, knockback,  movement and direct hits. I don't see why it should be higher damage and firerate compared to shotgun in close range fights.

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​There's unbalance and there's a cliff. Quake itself has a hard enough time retaining new players with a machine gun with decent range and accuracy, no idea why they thought it needed making any shitter unless design decisions are made based on listening to 2hardcore4u vets. The unfunness of the burst gun is amplified in ctf where there's so much more competition for items.

​Look at some QL TDM and then some QW TDM and you'll see why.

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​There's unbalance and there's a cliff. Quake itself has a hard enough time retaining new players with a machine gun with decent range and accuracy, no idea why they thought it needed making any shitter unless design decisions are made based on listening to 2hardcore4u vets. The unfunness of the burst gun is amplified in ctf where there's so much more competition for items.

​yes but in reflex you have MOVEMENT. in QL you spawn with a crappy ass machinegun and good luck getting to a decent gun before you die. here, you spawn and in an instant you can be on the other side of the map.

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​yes but in reflex you have MOVEMENT. in QL you spawn with a crappy ass machinegun and good luck getting to a decent gun before you die. here, you spawn and in an instant you can be on the other side of the map.

​But so can the other guys because of teleporters.

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Maybe they should let people chose their starting weapon in ctf, I guess they could call the feature loadouts. ;)

 

But yea, I know what you mean about starting weapon. I thought about adding more shotguns to spider xing but then I remembered how powerful the shotgun is in reflex compared to quake. I already added an extra shotgun on each side compared to the quake version. I think maps have to be made differently, like putting more rockets around the map. The problem is also that mappers don't currently have control over weapon and armour respawn times as well as no ammo pickups makes it feel like your always trying to find a weapon after spawn for longer than it should take.

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In quakelive shotgun deals 100 damage on close range and it's good, because you can counter LG and rockets, just how it should be. Rockets are good for spaming, knockback,  movement and direct hits. I don't see why it should be higher damage and firerate compared to shotgun in close range fights.

​The shotgun is honestly powerful enough, if you make it anymore powerful there'd be no reason to use any other weapon.

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I like it as a starting weapon. I just miss a little flair to it. At the moment it's just a weak gun with a weird pattern. It'd be nice to give it something special like reflecting shots (actually might be a bad idea but FFA would turn into an amazing light show), shots stick to the enemy for 2 seconds or so to make them easier to see or something (I really like this idea) or whatever else

Maybe if you hit all three pellets on the same enemy you deal additional 20 poison damage? I don't know

Edited by ique

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People really should look at some quakeworld 4v4 TDM footage before arguing about spawn weapons. The burst gun's weakness has strong origins in qw's shotgun which is very weak as well. This is done as to put more emphasis on map control. The stronger weapons in qw TDM spawn about every 30 seconds and are really strong, rockets have a huge splash radius and the shaft does 30 points of damage per cell. Since those weapons are so strong and the spawn gun so weak, in order to kill an enemy with either of those stronger weapons and some armor, a team will have to rush that player again and again with their shitty shotguns and sacrifice >10 frags combined or so (and people do that in order to eliminate the threat of the enemy weapon, which results in a net positive). That's intended behaviour and is how the weak spawn weapon is supposed to be used and why it's there. An enemy holding armor, one or two strong weapons and a quad damage should generally be considered unkillable unless your team is willing to sacrifice about 30 frags in the process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvl6mxJ2uzw <- here is a video that shows how that works (people with the spawn gun are referred to as boomstickers), watch the other quakeworld stuff on that channel as well. In fact, you might even want to start with one of the other vids, this one is really dry. milton's e1m2 game is quite fun to watch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lVW7WGwj7s), in fact just watch that. It shows off how it works perfectly. Notice how quickly Milton kills enemies when he has the RL and how long it takes to do any amount of damage when he only has the boomstick.

​in QL you spawn with a crappy ass machinegun

​The ql machinegun is way too strong for a spawn weapon. three people with machine guns can kill an enemy weapon very easily.

 

That being said, I think the burst gun in its current state is too unreliable in its damage output, the variance in damage done per engagement (i.e. until you die) is very big, or at least that's how it feels like. This is due to it being projectile based, the plasma gun (at least in ql/cpm) suffers from the same problem. These weapons are very situational, i.e. you will probably do the most damage to enemies sitting in small corridors.

Edited by Mizzu

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misconceptions in this thread:

  1.  quakelive mg is a weak weapon
  2. reflex burstgun is useless

burstgun is perfect for duel. i imagine its good for ctf aswell, since strong spawnweapons are cancerous.

i havent played any real tdm in reflex, same as everybody else, but i assume burstgun is similar to boomstick.

throughout the years people have also always been moaning that qw boomstick is too weak, also not true.

people who think the mg is a weak weapon need to learn what cessing is. to elaborate a bit:

default ql mg damage is 5 i think. all tdmpickup games have modified mg damage set to 4, because 5 is  too high.

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People really should look at some quakeworld 4v4 TDM footage before arguing about spawn weapons.

​I watched a stream of one of those a few weeks back. They put up a basketball score in a 20 minute match, so I'm not sure that's really a good basis on which to base a game's balance. Maybe if the starting weapon was stronger the dominant players would have to be more vary of the recent spawners and so many games wouldn't be fragfests. As per what dansen said, designing a game around the preferences of an ultra-hardcore elite at the expense of the rest of the playerbase is not the route to a successful game. Hence the failures of the various versions of Quake.

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​I watched a stream of one of those a few weeks back. They put up a basketball score in a 20 minute match, so I'm not sure that's really a good basis on which to base a game's balance. Maybe if the starting weapon was stronger the dominant players would have to be more vary of the recent spawners and so many games wouldn't be fragfests. As per what dansen said, designing a game around the preferences of an ultra-hardcore elite at the expense of the rest of the playerbase is not the route to a successful game. Hence the failures of the various versions of Quake.

​Which various versions?

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​I watched a stream of one of those a few weeks back. They put up a basketball score in a 20 minute match, so I'm not sure that's really a good basis on which to base a game's balance. Maybe if the starting weapon was stronger the dominant players would have to be more vary of the recent spawners and so many games wouldn't be fragfests. As per what dansen said, designing a game around the preferences of an ultra-hardcore elite at the expense of the rest of the playerbase is not the route to a successful game. Hence the failures of the various versions of Quake.

QW isn't balanced. Quake-like games are unbalanced at a fundamental level, it's their design at its core and it's a source of their strategical depth. It adds a layer to the game beyond aiming and movement. Diluting the difference between in and out of control does not make the game more accessible, rather it limits the number of viable playstyles, which would give players less opportunity to play according to their own strengths. I'd argue that makes the game less accessible.

E: There's been talk of QL dueling being solved and degredated to aimfests. I'm willing to bet nobody has even suggested that about QW in its 20 year existence.

Edited by Pill_

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I understand that it's your spawn weapon, but I don't understand why it has to be the shittiest weapon in all aspects.  I don't like that it's never usefull. In my opinion it should get replaced by stakegun.

​stakegun would be OP as a starter unless its damage was reduced (which imo would actually make sense since it's not really a great choice of weapon for dealing damage if you have a rocket launcher or boltgun anyway), I think a reduced damage tweaked version could be a great starter except for one other issue that then every map, every player would have a stakegun but perhaps there's other options like setting surface flags or server options to disable use of it actually spawning stakes or making it only spawn stakes if it has special ammo or something. I actually think it could be really cool.

I'm not really a fan of the burst gun, the mg in ql is great because it's a long range, accurate, rapid fire hitscan with low damage so works at any range in any situation without any real skill but other than as a starting weapon and as a finisher is mostly not that powerful. compared to the mg, the burst gun only succeeds in being weak and lacks all these other characteristics so I personally think any decent alternative is worth consideration since the current solution doesn't offer much.

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E: There's been talk of QL dueling being solved and degredated to aimfests. I'm willing to bet nobody has even suggested that about QW in its 20 year existence.

​Maybe because far fewer people play QW and all the top players are in QL?

​Which various versions?

​Well, all of them. Q3 and QL were the most enduring in terms of popularity and they have a machine gun that the pros think is OP and most players think is UP. The hardcore wannabe-pros who think the genre should be as inaccessible as possible are partly responsible for the death of the arena shooter. Remember that if you don't have a large casual playerbase you don't have a game and don't have a pro scene.

 

This place is like a cult at times. 

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E: There's been talk of QL dueling being solved and degredated to aimfests. I'm willing to bet nobody has even suggested that about QW in its 20 year existence.

 Milton interview from http://www.quakeworld.nu/forum/topic/304/2554/milton-interview/

as far as i know, you don't play duels much, right?
That's right. After duelmania.fi I kinda retired from duels although I play one or two every month or so.

tired or what?
That and the fact that at one point it was really hard to do anything new in duels. You can always get better aim but i.e. in dm4 the tactics are already there.

Edited by sinistral

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