Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Why not have a little walking feature, where if you're just pressing WASD, it makes footstep sounds, but when holding shift, it'll slow you down, make you walk and silence your footsteps? It adds little more tactical-ness to the game and could help out for those short moments to slow down for a bolt shot or something :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel it would mostly slow things down. I kinda like the no footsteps approach. The tactical aspects are still there. Just a bit more of getting into your opponents head to be able to read them correctly all the time instead of just when they walk. Something I really suck at but I've seen it being done plenty of times. Some are even disgusting in their ability to do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reflex is a faster game than QL. Bunnyhopping and strafe jumping in this game is so much faster than just running with WASD. So running without jumping at all is so slow that its already a trade off for the silence you get in return.

I dont think you'd get much good out of making running have sound. Like munglo said, the tactical aspect is still there, but everything is scaled up. Fast movement in this is faster than QL, silent movement in this is faster than in QL, but in both games the silent movement is still much slower than the loud movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think walk is necessary if there's crouch, but might as well just add them both to make everyone happy.

People have the general impression that footstep sounds slows the game down, but I think they have the complete opposite effect. Because running is much slower than strafejumping, it encourages people to strafejump more and if running were to create sound people would most likely ditch that to minimize sound.

Besides making sneaking a thing of it's own with slower walk/crouch would not slow the game down, rather slow down the players who +back and stall for time which in my opinion intensifies the pace of the cat and mouse situations. It would simply punish being slow and sneaky more. Just make sure the step sounds aren't generated by crossing over specific groundspeed like in Xonotic, if you turn in circlejump like motion whilst crouching it creates footstep sounds because you're going over the groundspeed threshold. That breaks the purpose of the feature pretty much.

Edited by Smilecythe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Smilecythe does have a good point, and so does m0sley.

The game is very fast and requires a ton of agility in order to get around, and spending ages walking may be way not worth it in a game like Reflex, however, perhaps in small ares such as popping out of a corner with someone else on the other end, which must be done requiring quickdraw precision, and must be unexpected, which would work if walking as slowing down increases precision as it's easier to hit someone that way, but trades off by making you vulnerable for that short time.

Crouching would be a great mechanic for those small parts where you dodge a bolt by just a centimeter, it would just add a little more coolness to the game :P crouching is also a standard feature for almost all fps games for its usefulness, so why not?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your suggestion would only slow down sneaking more.

Precisely, but it wouldn't slow down the pace of the game, because if you were to sneak with walk speed it would waste time for the in-control player and increase the risk of getting caught for the down player, in addition it would also make stalling for time harder. So in most situations players would be more encouraged to move faster. Also it would make sound control more competitive and learning to play opponents on new maps easier. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Precisely, but it wouldn't slow down the pace of the game, because if you were to sneak with walk speed it would waste time for the in-control player and increase the risk of getting caught for the down player, in addition it would also make stalling for time harder. So in most situations players would be more encouraged to move faster. Also it would make sound control more competitive and learning to play opponents on new maps easier. 

​With the usual size of the more played duel maps combined with movement speed makes it that you already have a hard time playing a bit sneaky. If you had to go slower to be sneaky it could very well mean that it would just give an advantage to the opponent. Giving them more time to catch up on you after you spawn. In short it would mean that a spawn on a duel map would almost need 3 possible routes from it to give the sneaky player a chance to get away and work on their stack. 1 route is negated as the opponent approaches the spawnplace, leaving a 50-50 scenario on the other two. Yeah it would not be applicable everywhere and everytime but take a map like thct7. A fast player will be able to run down a freshly spawned player even more in some cases. Not to mention the sneaky approach towards the YA (next to IC) where you avoid picking the armour shards. As it is now the timing of getting through is just fine. If you would have to slow down to try to get a sneak attack in. Well then the risk could be to great, resulting in people avoiding doing that. That is the kind of slow down I don't think is needed and could be the risk of a change like this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nah game definatly needs walking.. feels 'unfinished' without it ;)... i noticed on team games it gets rather bs without footsteps where ur controlling an area.. look away for a second, look back and there is 3 guys that have appeared out of nowhere  with no sound shooting at you.

Only way to counter this is to spin ur mouse around in circles every 2 seconds but then u look like a spastic lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm strongly against footsounds for normal movement (they're even horrible in vq3 tbh), but i would still like +speed, it's useful when positioning yourself on corners/ledges. Higher precision etc.

​Are you talking sprint button or a speed limit which, if you are above, you make footstep noises? The latter could be fun if the momentum changed a bit. But that would risk making the movement feel more floaty which would be bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

​With the usual size of the more played duel maps combined with movement speed makes it that you already have a hard time playing a bit sneaky. If you had to go slower to be sneaky it could very well mean that it would just give an advantage to the opponent. Giving them more time to catch up on you after you spawn. In short it would mean that a spawn on a duel map would almost need 3 possible routes from it to give the sneaky player a chance to get away and work on their stack. 1 route is negated as the opponent approaches the spawnplace, leaving a 50-50 scenario on the other two. Yeah it would not be applicable everywhere and everytime but take a map like thct7. A fast player will be able to run down a freshly spawned player even more in some cases. Not to mention the sneaky approach towards the YA (next to IC) where you avoid picking the armour shards. As it is now the timing of getting through is just fine. If you would have to slow down to try to get a sneak attack in. Well then the risk could be to great, resulting in people avoiding doing that. That is the kind of slow down I don't think is needed and could be the risk of a change like this.

It's true that if you make being sneaky easier it's easier for everyone to be nimble, fast and sneaky, but that only accomplishes skill gap compression. It hardly requires any timing or decision making currently, you can get to up to 500ups without much effort. Also, Xonotic doesn't suffer from this kind of slow down at all, in fact the game feels a lot faster than CPM/Reflex. However that could be partly due to the stair slide feature as well, you can slide through any set of stairs without making a sound or losing speed. Equivalent of that in Reflex could be something like Q4-esque crouchslide, if you watch the link you'll see how much more crouchslide was preferred over walking for minimizing sound. People seemed interested about crouchslide in this forum some time ago, so I thought I'd bring that up as well.

Edited by Smilecythe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's true that if you make being sneaky easier it's easier for everyone to be nimble, fast and sneaky, but that only accomplishes skill gap compression. It hardly requires any timing or decision making currently, you can get to up to 500ups without much effort. Also, Xonotic doesn't suffer from this kind of slow down at all, in fact the game feels a lot faster than CPM/Reflex. However that could be partly due to the stair slide feature as well, you can slide through any set of stairs without making a sound or losing speed. Equivalent of that in Reflex could be something like Q4-esque crouchslide, if you watch the link you'll see how much more crouchslide was preferred over walking for minimizing sound. People seemed interested about crouchslide in this forum some time ago, so I thought I'd bring that up as well.

​The point I am trying to make is that the speed of silent running now is good and fits the overall speed of the game. Introducing sound on that speed and adding a slower version that is silent shifts that balance. Where you now can use the silence to get around you might very well not be able to if you would have to move slower to be silent. Strictly speaking as ground covered goes, it does limit the available route options for the player that are opting to be sneaky. You just wouldn't get as far, meaning you can't use a sneaky approach in as many places.

There are possibilities to make it work. Like making the distance you can hear the footsteps on very short. I don't know but my guess would be that there just isn't any reason to go mess with that before they switch the sound system. Maybe then we can get HRTF(hopefully :) ) sound with short (very short) range sound on footsteps. Right now though, the sound ingame is just bad all over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with smilecythe that having a really slow silent speed would actually keep the pace of the game up. But I think:

A. The scale of speed in reflex makes running in reflex still far slower than moving properly. I think its a suitable price to pay for silence. Especially with stairs making noise as you said. There isnt a lot of map geometry you can cover without hitting something you need to jump over or some stairs

B. Slowing you all the way down to walking speed might discourage people from making those cool traps or tactical plays at all and makes it harder to get back into the game if youre out of control (and vice versa, easier to stay in control because of sound information from players who dont want to slow down that much)

C. Being able to run in Reflex instead of walk when setting traps is just more fun. It feels better. I really enjoy the pace of vq3 gameplay, but when I'm playing reflex duels I'm looking for a faster smoother gameplay experience and setting traps and hiding like a bitch while being able to move slowly, but not painfully slowly, is just plain nice

 

Truthfully though, I wouldnt have a big issue with either implementation. But I enjoy how it is now and think it suits the speed of the game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are possibilities to make it work. Like making the distance you can hear the footsteps on very short. I don't know but my guess would be that there just isn't any reason to go mess with that before they switch the sound system. Maybe then we can get HRTF(hopefully :) ) sound with short (very short) range sound on footsteps. Right now though, the sound ingame is just bad all over.

​In Xonotic you can still be sneaky even with the footstep sounds, wallstrafing for example gives you inaccurate information on how fast you're approaching because the rate of the sounds doesn't increase, I have surprised people who've +backed on me and shot rockets on their trail so many times. Sometimes you might not even hear the steps behind explosions or your own step/landing sounds. Xonotic also doesn't have the jump sound, only landing. 

Edited by Smilecythe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crouching would be a great mechanic for those small parts where you dodge a bolt by just a centimeter, it would just add a little more coolness to the game :P crouching is also a standard feature for almost all fps games for its usefulness, so why not?

​Crouching also opens up some more options for level design and trick jumping. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this might warrant a post. If you pay attention you will see how both players use sound, or the lack of it. Imagine adding footsteps on normal speed and a slower silent walk. Imagine how that would effect how they play. I am not saying this is the gameplay that should be the end product of Reflex but it is what it is now. It is fully possible to change it. That would however mean that a lot of the maps would if not be broken at least be played a bit differently.

 

Edited by MuNgLo
clarification

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this might warrant a post. If you pay attention you will see how both players use sound, or the lack of it. Imagine adding footsteps on normal speed and a slower silent walk. Imagine how that would effect how they play. I am not saying this is the gameplay that should be the end product of Reflex but it is what it is now. It is fully possible to change it. That would however mean that a lot of the maps would if not be broken at least be played a bit differently.

The jump buzz sound in itself has been a subject of criticism several times. If strafejumping was in turn made quieter eg. getting rid of the jump sound, I wouldn't have to imagine - I would know it would play faster on higher tiers. I know how easily those step sounds can be masked with other sounds, how you can take advantage of your opponents sounds doing that for you and how much more you're pressured to get your feet off the ground to stop generating your own sounds. I also know that jump feigns are a lot harder and you need to improvise more. 

While you're running and generating step sounds you'd have two choices; walk/crouch slowly but in complete silence or strafe/circlejump, gain lots of speed and only generate sound in places where you land. I see the inclusion of step sounds adding a lot more from aesthetics to gameplay elements than what including them would take away. I don't think it would change how the maps would be played, it would simply speed the pace up.

Current method of no step sounds advocates sneaking more than it does going fast, if you feel sneaking is more important than the fast pace of the gameplay then you're absolutely correct in what you're saying. I personally don't find sneaking around with sneak-friendly dynamics that interesting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 for smilecythe.

The only thing i'm wondering about: what about the out-of-control player? Won't it be hard to be sneaky to try and regain some control, if you can basically only be silent if you walk at 10ups?

It's not like you're gonna be able to just silent walk your way on to a red armour at 320 UPS either... A good player will always be there, ready to pick it up and probably frag you.

I'm not particularly for or against adding footsteps/silent walking. I think it would be different but not objectively good or bad. I do think the increased play dynamics could be interesting though. We already have the fastest fast, maybe mixing it up with some slow play could be interesting too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 for smilecythe.

The only thing i'm wondering about: what about the out-of-control player? Won't it be hard to be sneaky to try and regain some control, if you can basically only be silent if you walk at 10ups?

Assuming we follow the model (stepsounds 1, jump sounds 0): Sneaking would still exist, however you'd be more vulnerable when you decide to be soundless and timing is more important. Duelers in Xonotic usually prefer racing items that they know they can get without bumping into opponents rather than trying to be soundless. Also, when you're trying to stall for time you're usually better off strafe jumping fast as fuck or at the least +backing and spamming rockets. 

A. The scale of speed in reflex makes running in reflex still far slower than moving properly. I think its a suitable price to pay for silence. Especially with stairs making noise as you said. There isnt a lot of map geometry you can cover without hitting something you need to jump over or some stairs

Also, in the case of Xonotic strafe/circle jumping is kind of sneaky as well, you only make sounds from initial steps from your first circle jump and places that you land afterwards. And since there's no jump sound, you can jump through stairs and ledges without making a sound due to not going down fast/long enough to generate landing sounds.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can't count how often i fell off of a cliff or ledge while fighting someone below me. iam not sure if a walking function would prevent me diving off but would sure help keep my footing. *shrugs*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×