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MeSuggestManyThing!

Reflex in eSports?

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The game might be too early in development for this to be in consideration at this point, but are the developers taking steps to make sure Reflex won't just be another Arena FPS with a tiny community that will die in like a years time?

The game is so smooth and awesome to play, and as it's an arena FPS game, the game is (obviously) perfect for competitive play at major LANs, provided they market it and push towards that as a goal, so my question is - are they?

I'd love to see a game like this as a major eSports title, Reflex is the one, make it happen guys, this game is the fucking best!

Edit: If you can make all people currently playing Arena FPS games move to Reflex, that's a very good start, to have the arena FPS community as one, alive community, rather than 8 scattered and dead ones.

Edited by MeSuggestManyThing!

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I'd love to see a game like this as a major eSports title, 

​It won't happen because they don't have money to do this. Even if the game will have a decent amount of players, it will never reach the same level of majority like Quake does.

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i politely disagree. reflex has one thing, it is build WAY better than QL. the netcode is fucking miles away from the embarassement that QL has. people will want to play Reflex because reflex is just better - they do not need special promotions.

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​It won't happen because they don't have money to do this. Even if the game will have a decent amount of players, it will never reach the same level of majority like Quake does.

You're talking to the Quake community as we speak. 

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​It won't happen because they don't have money to do this. Even if the game will have a decent amount of players, it will never reach the same level of majority like Quake does.

​No need to be negative about it. The revival happened to cs, it happened to starcraft and it happened to Dota. I am convinced the afps genre will rise to popularity again within 5 years. Maybe it will not be in Reflex, tho i do hope so. As you said the devs need money. Im hoping valve buys turbopixel :D!! 

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I think the biggest problem game has when it comes to eSports is the current pace of the game. Game is way too fast and as a result "random" to be enjoyed in the format that is essential to all esports titles. What makes a great game to spectate then? You need to be able to predict and analyze the game to some point and make assumptions, it creates tension and intrest. Currently game is so fast and unpredictable that no matter how fast stream caster speaks, he cant really speak fast enought to create a these assumptions for people watching, before they already unfold or lose their value as the game's pace is so fast that situation can change completely in matter of seconds. This applies already to duel, but take something like TDM, its fucking impossible to cast that shit so that it would make really any sense.

Game needs to be slowed down, more value must be added to control and positioning. Movement is currently so fast that it allows you to make a lot of "mistakes" without getting punished, it also enables players to move in few seconds to another side of map which basicly means that situation can change to completely different in just few seconds. I also feel that there isnt enought ways to force fights: its too easy to just exit fight, movement allows players to move in map pretty freely without getting punished for their foolishness, theres no baiting to items as getting item such as RA is valuable pickup even if you take 2 rockets to face from it.

And as most of the people like to enjoy games with their friends we need also one GREAT teammode that really is something new, fresh and fun. CTF, TDM etc have already been overplayed in the past and since most of the games offer more intresting teammodes, people expect more from team modes.

;TLDR

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I think the biggest problem game has when it comes to eSports is the current pace of the game. Game is way too fast and as a result "random" to be enjoyed in the format that is essential to all esports titles. What makes a great game to spectate then? You need to be able to predict and analyze the game to some point and make assumptions, it creates tension and intrest. Currently game is so fast and unpredictable that no matter how fast stream caster speaks, he cant really speak fast enought to create a these assumptions for people watching, before they already unfold or lose their value as the game's pace is so fast that situation can change completely in matter of seconds. This applies already to duel, but take something like TDM, its fucking impossible to cast that shit so that it would make really any sense.

Game needs to be slowed down, more value must be added to control and positioning. Movement is currently so fast that it allows you to make a lot of "mistakes" without getting punished, it also enables players to move in few seconds to another side of map which basicly means that situation can change to completely different in just few seconds. I also feel that there isnt enought ways to force fights: its too easy to just exit fight, movement allows players to move in map pretty freely without getting punished for their foolishness, theres no baiting to items as getting item such as RA is valuable pickup even if you take 2 rockets to face from it.

And as most of the people like to enjoy games with their friends we need also one GREAT teammode that really is something new, fresh and fun. CTF, TDM etc have already been overplayed in the past and since most of the games offer more intresting teammodes, people expect more from team modes.

;TLDR

​How does the speed make it "random"?

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I think the biggest problem game has when it comes to eSports is the current pace of the game. Game is way too fast and as a result "random" to be enjoyed in the format that is essential to all esports titles. What makes a great game to spectate then? You need to be able to predict and analyze the game to some point and make assumptions, it creates tension and intrest. Currently game is so fast and unpredictable that no matter how fast stream caster speaks, he cant really speak fast enought to create a these assumptions for people watching, before they already unfold or lose their value as the game's pace is so fast that situation can change completely in matter of seconds. This applies already to duel, but take something like TDM, its fucking impossible to cast that shit so that it would make really any sense.

Game needs to be slowed down, more value must be added to control and positioning. Movement is currently so fast that it allows you to make a lot of "mistakes" without getting punished, it also enables players to move in few seconds to another side of map which basicly means that situation can change to completely different in just few seconds. I also feel that there isnt enought ways to force fights: its too easy to just exit fight, movement allows players to move in map pretty freely without getting punished for their foolishness, theres no baiting to items as getting item such as RA is valuable pickup even if you take 2 rockets to face from it.

And as most of the people like to enjoy games with their friends we need also one GREAT teammode that really is something new, fresh and fun. CTF, TDM etc have already been overplayed in the past and since most of the games offer more intresting teammodes, people expect more from team modes.

;TLDR

​I dont know where you got the word random from, I mean the close up rocket fights can be pretty random yeah and a couple of other elements like it should be easier to punish pickups but otherwise, I dont think so. As for the speed I think DDK has some decent videos casting CPMA. Tbh the problem is no good caster has ever tried to commentate the game. With TDM and CTF sure, but I am convinced that what you are talking about when it comes to predicting and analyzing and ESPECIALLY play by play (X uses good dodging, he goes for the red and OH MY GOD WHAT AN AMAZING FLICK BY Y HE HITS HIM JUST BEFORE THE RED AND NOW HE GOES FOR THE SPAWNRAPES CAN HE MAKE A COMEBACK) it could be done for duel. 

imho

As for new team modes I agree, personally I would love to see a 2v2 capture point/king of the hill game mode!

peace

Edited by pUlseEater

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'Esports' is just a marketing gimmick, do you really need a game to be validated by hundreds of thousands of sweaty shithead kids watching it?

I'll answer it for you

You don't

Sure, there's a distinction between 'Esports' and competition, the latter of which is what this game should aim to hit, I think competition should be a natural thing and not some forced gimmick a la Heartshit, let people grow their own competitions and let the developers do as they will, 'Esports' is for companies with big budgets and a marketing desire.

Just look at Smash or something of that ilk, a nice grassroots movement is what this community(not game) should aim for.

 

Esports is a fucking joke for teenagers who've fucked up their life enough to actually consider earning a salary from a video game.

 

 

 

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Esports is a fucking joke for teenagers who've fucked up their life enough to actually consider earning a salary from a video game.

 

Yeah, fuck those kids for being good at something in a competitive field and earning a lot of money off it, amirite guys?
​I guess everything involving companies and money is evil and bad news these days...

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Yeah, fuck those kids for being good at something in a competitive field and earning a lot of money off it, amirite guys?​I guess everything involving companies and money is evil and bad news these days...

Oh come on, no sane person would think working in 'Esports' is a good career path, most are done before they're 25.

Edited by Morgoth

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I think the biggest problem game has when it comes to eSports is the current pace of the game. Game is way too fast and as a result "random" to be enjoyed in the format that is essential to all esports titles. What makes a great game to spectate then? You need to be able to predict and analyze the game to some point and make assumptions, it creates tension and intrest. Currently game is so fast and unpredictable that no matter how fast stream caster speaks, he cant really speak fast enought to create a these assumptions for people watching, before they already unfold or lose their value as the game's pace is so fast that situation can change completely in matter of seconds. This applies already to duel, but take something like TDM, its fucking impossible to cast that shit so that it would make really any sense.

Game needs to be slowed down, more value must be added to control and positioning. Movement is currently so fast that it allows you to make a lot of "mistakes" without getting punished, it also enables players to move in few seconds to another side of map which basicly means that situation can change to completely different in just few seconds. I also feel that there isnt enought ways to force fights: its too easy to just exit fight, movement allows players to move in map pretty freely without getting punished for their foolishness, theres no baiting to items as getting item such as RA is valuable pickup even if you take 2 rockets to face from it.

​The fast pace is what makes the game fun, i don't really care if that makes it harder to cast or incomprehensible for the average csgo fan.

If your opponent can move around the map freely without getting punished then your movement is shit, that's not the game's fault. Doesn't make the game random either.

And as most of the people like to enjoy games with their friends we need also one GREAT teammode that really is something new, fresh and fun. CTF, TDM etc have already been overplayed in the past and since most of the games offer more intresting teammodes, people expect more from team modes.

Feel free to suggest something, the lack of new teammodes isn't down to people wanting to stick to TDM and CTF.

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​How does the speed make it "random"?

​Random in a way that it is unpredictable. Things happen so fast, that you cant really predict what kind of gameplay is upcoming. Advantages between players switch so rapidly most of the time that it is impossible to predict what is the situation in next 10 seconds. This is mostly due to high movement speed and maneuverability, your having too many choices at all times. In any popular esport title game advances gradually and upcoming things can be predicted way before: We usually see player / players prepping up to do some tactical move and then execution. Do we see that in Reflex? 

'Esports' is just a marketing gimmick, do you really need a game to be validated by hundreds of thousands of sweaty shithead kids watching it?

​If you want to archieve popularity in current esports scene its the only way. Mention one game that is big in eSports that doesnt have ton of streamers?

 

As for the speed I think DDK has some decent videos casting CPMA. 

I watched a few and its really just "He has control he is fragging. Nice rail to rocket combo. BLABLABLA. Now control has switched and another player is getting spawnfrags." Theres really nothing tactical analysis at all, mostly cuz theres nothing tactical happening in the game. Its run and gun.

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People need to realize that a game doesn't get popular because of a competitive environment, tourneys or whatever. It's the exact other way around. Competition (Esports) is a result or side-effect of popularity. I doubt lots of people watch streams for games they do not play. That's true of almost all big competitive titles currently played (the two big Dota-clones, counterstrike). So the question "How do we establish a healthy competitive scene?" really should be "How do we make a popular game?". In order to be popular the game needs to appeal to a wide audience. This in turn means that the game needs to be fun for the average gamer in 2015.

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Do we see that in Reflex? 

Yeah, we do. It might not seem that way from the perspective of a newcomer, but I can assure you this is very much the case at a higher level of play. Predicting stuff is possible (and lack of predictability does not make it random). 

 

I watched a few and its really just "He has control he is fragging. Nice rail to rocket combo. BLABLABLA. Now control has switched and another player is getting spawnfrags." Theres really nothing tactical analysis at all, mostly cuz theres nothing tactical happening in the game. Its run and gun.

Again, it might seem like just run and gun to the untrained eye, but this is not the case. Especially at a higher level, tactical stuff happens all the time, but it might not be obvious to newcomers because a lot of other stuff is bound to be happening. Shooting in itself can be a tactical decision. 

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There being a ton of unfamiliar maps might have a lot to do with the confusion in whats tactical and whats not. I personally can't really follow the thought process in maps like THC13 and DP4 because I don't know the maps that well, but when you switch to maps like Aerowalk or Fuse(Xonotic) then I have more personal experience to relate to there. Compared to other aFPS there's exceptionally plenty of original maps in Reflex and I think that's more overwhelming for keeping up with tactics than the fast pace of the game.

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I do agree with jjuho that the game is too fast to follow for your average stream viewer. In order to recognize what's happening at any given point in a duel match, you need too much experience. I disagree with him that we should turn the game into QL to compensate.

Morgoth/lasker is right. eSports is a buzzword used to exploit teens into throwing their life away. You might be the shit at one game and make decent money for a few years, but games rise and fall in popularity and even more importantly, hardware gets better. Hardware companies sponsor most events as far as I'm aware and they don't want to throw a lot of money at a game that you can run on a pc from a year ago. So, they move their attention and their money -- money used for prize money and marketing -- to the next game and you're left out in the cold. Sure, everything could turn out great, like CZM being a professor in Switzerland, or fatty turning a few victories a thousand years ago into a brand, but you could just as easily have thrown away a high school diploma, a college education and work experience for absolutely nothing. Good luck finding a job when you're in your twenties and your skillset consists of being really good at clicking on heads really fast and nothing else.

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People need to realize that a game doesn't get popular because of a competitive environment, tourneys or whatever. It's the exact other way around. Competition (Esports) is a result or side-effect of popularity. I doubt lots of people watch streams for games they do not play. That's true of almost all big competitive titles currently played (the two big Dota-clones, counterstrike). So the question "How do we establish a healthy competitive scene?" really should be "How do we make a popular game?". In order to be popular the game needs to appeal to a wide audience. This in turn means that the game needs to be fun for the average gamer in 2015.

For Dota and LoL, non-players don't really watch those games to any degree because there's so much in game knowledge that you need to be able enjoy it. Counter Strike and Starcraft you can watch without really playing the game, I know that I have. I watch the CS majors but I have like 20 hours total in game, and I don't plan on playing more of it. It's the equivalent of someone playing football as a kid, and then just watching it when they grow up. Similarly, arena fps games like Reflex have a reasonably sized pool of people that could potentially be interested in watching it if it got big enough to have significant tournaments. You only need to be aware of the genre itself to understand it so if you played for example quake 3 seriously between 2001 and 2003, but now you don't have the time or interest to play, you can still understand and enjoy a tournament. 

I agree with everything else you said though. Something becoming an esport is a result of that game's popularity, not the other way around. People always want to find out who the best player is, and there has already been Reflex tournaments so it's already an "esport" in my opinion. If the game was 1000x as big, the tournaments would just be bigger.

Someone mentioned something about how hardware sponsors are only interested when the game is hard to run. This is just not true. None of the current popular esports titles (cs, dota, lol) require a strong machine to run. And when Starcraft 2 was more popular, Intel was a big sponsor (don't know if they still are), and that game doesn't require a fast PC either. What CS and Reflex have in common is that you can run it on whatever, but for optimal performance, you need a new machine. Ultimately, sponsors care about who is watching, how many are watching, and for how long are they are watching.

 

Edited by fmj

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Someone mentioned something about how hardware sponsors are only interested when the game is hard to run. This is just not true. None of the current popular esports titles (cs, dota, lol) require a strong machine to run. And when Starcraft 2 was more popular, Intel was a big sponsor (don't know if they still are), and that game doesn't require a fast PC either. What CS and Reflex have in common is that you can run it on whatever, but for optimal performance, you need a new machine. Ultimately, sponsors care about who is watching, how many are watching, and for how long are they are watching.

​I think you should think bigger, or rather, longer. If you can only make money off something for 5 to 10 years, it's not a viable career choice and the games you mentioned haven't been around longer than that (in their current iteration). Sponsors care about making money. To make money they advertise their products and that's kind of hard to do if the platform (in other words the game) they're using for that advertisement shows that you don't need to buy their new, expensive products because their old and cheap stuff will suffice.

Suppose for instance that tomorrow, a better input device than mouse and keyboard will be released. It's more accurate, more responsive, less restrictive, it's just all around awesome. Suddenly, all these pro players who excel at using the mouse and keyboard setup won't be all that pro anymore. What are they supposed to do then?

Soccer won't get old and dated. Basketball won't get old and dated. Darts won't get old and dated. Video games do.

The reason I'm saying this is because I hope the community (and the devs for that matter) doesn't fall into this whole esports trap and instead tries to build something that will last.

Edited by Pill_
Thought up an example

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