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TornadoStorm

Redesign proposal of burst gun

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Hello,

After I had a read through of a post at reddit:

"

  • Burst Gun

This gun is just utterly useless. I don't think this gun is salvageable at all. I propose a complete re-design.

Here's my suggestion, and it is again influenced by my time from NS2.

Make something similar to the hand pistol. Not unlike something like the glock from cstrike as well.

Here's a frag video from NS2 where there's a few pistol frags, among others, just so you can get a feeling of what I'm talking about.

So the thing that makes the NS2 pistol interesting is that it is definitely an offhand. You don't want to use it as your main gun. But it IS an effective weapon.

It is designed in such a way that it has a very high dps compared to the lmg (Your std primary), but it has a very low clip. So while the lmg has lower dps, it has a larger clipdmg pool which allows you to do more dmg before you need to reload.

" ~ S4ntaClaws

I also had an idea about the burst gun. I feel all weapons in Reflex should have their specific roles and uses and I feel the burst gun is just utterly useless. None would ever use it over another gun since it's basically a bad shotgun with lower range and it's projectile based making it very difficult to get a kill.

I think the burst gun should be replaced with an all-purpose weapon of some sort, which has a reduced DPS in exchange for its purpose as being used for any range at any situation as a decent weapon, just as the machinegun in Quake did; it was quite low in damage, yet players would still use it from time to time for either picking off bits of health from players afar, or for supressive fire, or even just for opening doors. Although it was not a weapon to use all the time, it was useful as a backup for all situations, and atleast had a use. (+ a pistol like the one in ns2 wouldn't be such a bad idea)

Any thoughts on both of these ideas?

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Devs have said that the burstgun is how it is, because since it's completely useless, it forces the player to seekout for better weapons. Aka, there is no jerking around until/before a player decides to go after the pickups on the map, since you're not much of a threat if you run around with just burst. That being said.. I personally feel that it would be nice if the starting weapon had the ability that q3 mg had. Forexample on dm6 you can use it as longrange "peeler" weapon since with good aim, it's not completely useless due to it's faster rate of fire.

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I liked the early burstgun... It dealt more damage -> Actually a usefull way to kill some injured opponent on close range.. They nerfed it because somebody pubstomped with that gun when the game was super fresh and new and many newbs where around in public FFA... So I don't think that nerf was needed at all. But on the other hand I think am not a fan of the rocketlauncher nerf either.. I don't like how players only get bounced when you hit their legs exactly... At the same time the damage splash radius is so low you can easily avoid it in many cases. I would love to see these changes reverted and also slight damage buffs for plasma, IC and shotgun (it would be enaugh to fix shotgun spread maybe... Like.. Most of the time shotgun spray only works well on mid range which is strange. I'd expect a shotgun to be good in close range. Maybe they should change the spray cone to not be extremely narrow on close range or they could add damage falloff to the shotgun.. Like 100 DMG on very close range, 80 damage on mid range, 30 damage on high range, no damage on very high range)

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Yeah I always thought it was nice that the MG had a role even if it was quite niche and if your opponent wasnt smart about it they could take some reasonable damage, but the gun is still far worse than the others. A nice balance.

The burst gun has grown on me a little but I bet it frustrates the hell out of new players. I think something like a QW shotgun would be more useful off spawn, more satisfying for new players and a solid weapon to use during carnage runs and for finishing kills so it has a role and it would still be a weak spawn weapon that encourages you to get other guns.

But like I said, the burst gun is growing on me, and once you get better at using it, it feels less useless

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6 minutes ago, Stalast said:

It isn't useless. And it isn't meant to be effective. It forces the player to pick up a new weapon and play the game the way it was intended. It's a great design imo.

The problem with that though, is that this game is supposed to be 99.99% fair, correct? If you spawn with a super useless gun that's so underpowered and difficult to use, I wouldn't find it very fair as the spawned player would have absolutely no chance against an opponent :L

If you compare the burst gun with the chaingun in QL, although the gun would want you to get a new weapon as soon as possible that's specialized to a more advantageous situation, e.g. bolt rifle for long range sniping or plasma for medium range spraying and supression, it would still play for a use in the game as an all-purpose weapon which trades off for its ability to deal larger amounts of damage to let's say a rocket launcher, but it still had a use :D

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1 minute ago, TornadoStorm said:

The problem with that though, is that this game is supposed to be 99.99% fair, correct? If you spawn with a super useless gun that's so underpowered and difficult to use, I wouldn't find it very fair as the spawned player would have absolutely no chance against an opponent :L

I think the game mode you're looking for is arena. The whole point of situations like this is item control and positioning, it shouldn't be balance-matched upon spawning if you were outplayed.

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1 hour ago, TornadoStorm said:

The problem with that though, is that this game is supposed to be 99.99% fair, correct? If you spawn with a super useless gun that's so underpowered and difficult to use, I wouldn't find it very fair as the spawned player would have absolutely no chance against an opponent :L

The game is meant to be fair, it's not meant to be balanced, in the sense that you're not meant to have a 50/50 shot in every fight.

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I wrote https://www.reddit.com/r/reflex/comments/1st4cf/on_the_topic_of_weaponarmor_balance_and_tdm/ about two years ago, and I still stand by the argument I wrote at the time. 

A weak starting weapon is critical to making team deathmatch a deeper game mode than free for all. I know reflex doesn't have a serious tdm community, but if Matchmaking is planned for tdm (and causes it to pick up in popularity), it would be a bad thing, in my opinion, to make the starting weapon too strong. 

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Burst gun weak? Has a relatively high ROF and deals 30 dmg for each full (all three pellets) hit. So really, if your opponent is 100-0 and you hit him 3 times +1 pellet then he's dead? How long would it take you to kill a 100-0 opponent in Q3 with the MG? Prolly not less than 2 seconds.

Weak bro...

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Hmm. I guess it makes sense to have an almost useless for a spawn weapon. Better than having nothing at the start and I see now that players are meant to start off unequipped and weak at spawn. But how about give the gun a use other than defending your dear life at spawn? Maybe have the weapon ricochet so then you could use it for flushing out enemies in tight spaces, or supressing enemies around corners?

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6 hours ago, MAD_JIHAD said:

I feel like the burst gun is perfect for a starting weapon in duels but ctf and tdm might be need something better.

Players taking you down with spawn weapon is crap in TDM too. I also think there's too much ammo for Burstgun, which I hope changes once and if there'll be ammo boxes. 

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7 hours ago, Smilecythe said:

Players taking you down with spawn weapon is crap in TDM too. I also think there's too much ammo for Burstgun, which I hope changes once and if there'll be ammo boxes. 

There will be ammopickups.

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No no no no nothing with any range damn you guys are being scary

Have we learned nothing from the terrible mg spam in Q3 and CPMA? Burst gun is a terrific starting weapon, in that's it's weak, but with good aim and practice you can actually do alright damage in close quarters. I'm 100% happy with it the way it is

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On 1.1.2016 at 0:25 AM, newborn said:

We'll be playing with it at some point, which might include entirely new behaviour. Going to be avoiding something hitscan though, because 3 newly spawned players taking you down with their starting weapons is crap.

Why? It's 3v1 and that should never be too easy. But ofc it always depends on stack. I think a guy with YA and Rocketlauncher should be killable when facing 3 enemies at once.I think there are too many "overpowered" items (especially armors and Quad) in Reflex that can make a match too uneven. If the game had stronger weapons in general (like I described earlier) then it was still possible to crowdcontrol your enemies but at the same time it would not be possible to constantly dominate the enemy team just because of item control. In my opinion there should always be a risk of getting killed. There should be less risk when stacked but it should still be there. At some point it should be important to run away (even when stacked) and at some point it should be important to fight (even when freshly spawned).

Edit: But I agree that the QL/Q3 MG is not a good starting weapon. I'd prefer a QW shotgun or a Half-Life pistol which can deal headshot damage... Or a stakegun.. Something that can be effective on close range (or on high range when aimed precisely) but it should not be a spam weapon.

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10 hours ago, furyaxsfigkjhn said:

Why? It's 3v1 and that should never be too easy. But ofc it always depends on stack. I think a guy with YA and Rocketlauncher should be killable when facing 3 enemies at once.I think there are too many "overpowered" items (especially armors and Quad) in Reflex that can make a match too uneven. If the game had stronger weapons in general (like I described earlier) then it was still possible to crowdcontrol your enemies but at the same time it would not be possible to constantly dominate the enemy team just because of item control. In my opinion there should always be a risk of getting killed. There should be less risk when stacked but it should still be there. At some point it should be important to run away (even when stacked) and at some point it should be important to fight (even when freshly spawned).

Edit: But I agree that the QL/Q3 MG is not a good starting weapon. I'd prefer a QW shotgun or a Half-Life pistol which can deal headshot damage... Or a stakegun.. Something that can be effective on close range (or on high range when aimed precisely) but it should not be a spam weapon.

quoting this and bolding some shit so more people read it

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