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how do you guys feel about rail balance?

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5 hours ago, danskq said:

Nope. But i dont want them to be rendered useless either. Especially ppl who hate, dont like, dont know how to play against it, dont use bolt suggests stuff that would make it utterly useless, as seen above.

IC is propably the most urgent weapon to fix and balance atm. (Burst gun also)

As someone who does know how to play against it, and use it I still think the weapon concept is flawed.

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14 hours ago, Terifire said:

Imo bolt is the least skillful weapon of all, and thus it is weird that it deals such high damage.

My suggestions for bolt are:

Short burst bolt (basically a high powered burst fire ic) that deals 90 damage over 3 shots in something like 300ms, then has a reload time of 1200 ms.
This, I feel, would make it a more skillful weapon to use.

Another idea is that it has different damage/reload time depending on the range of the shot.
If it hits a close range target the damage is high but so is the reload time at 1.5s (to punish bad choice of weapons for close range), at medium range it deals medium damage and has a medium reload time of 1s, at long range low damage low reload of 0.5s.

So it looks like this
Close 80 - 1.5s
Medium 40 - 1s
Far 20 - 0.5s

Reason for this it's that it's odd that one of the easiest weapons with infinite range deals such high damage, the only counter for bolt is often the bolt rifle itself.
 

I also feel that some players try to adapt the game to their personal playstyle. (Which might include myself as well ;) )

I am usually using bolt way too much, and also making the mistake using it close range, which is definitely punishing as it is right now, with that reload time.

People always complain about snipers/campers etc. in fps games, but also alot of people like these games just because of these kind of weapons.

If you look at damage done, IC champs have even more dmg on IC than with RL, whereas bolt will never be as high a dmg dealer as that.

Also, what other way to get a player in control down a bit than trying to snipe him with bolt a little.

Personally I feel having bolt as it is right now, is already punishing players who are using it extensively, but nerfing or even removing it, would change the game towards a more en vogue playstyle, while cutting out some of other possible playstyles, which are part of this genre, as I feel. To hit rail well in Quake had the most rewarding feel for me, and I also admired people with good rail aim the most.

Since camping doesn't really work in Reflex, why removing some more of the variety that this game has to offer.

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37 minutes ago, Terifire said:

As someone who does know how to play against it, and use it I still think the weapon concept is flawed.

Could you go into that a bit more? I'm sort of new to this stuff so I'm not really familiar with the arguments people give one way or the other.

From my limited experience, though, it's a useful weapon for finishing and taking pot shots but it's actual dps is pretty bad so as long as you have good movement, I've found that it's not too hard to punish people for relying on bolts too much. Maybe I'm just too used to dealing with awpers in CS, but to me the bolt doesn't feel unbalanced or BS at all. And no, I'm not someone who relies on the bolt a lot.

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1 hour ago, KangaJoo said:

Could you go into that a bit more? I'm sort of new to this stuff so I'm not really familiar with the arguments people give one way or the other.

From my limited experience, though, it's a useful weapon for finishing and taking pot shots but it's actual dps is pretty bad so as long as you have good movement, I've found that it's not too hard to punish people for relying on bolts too much. Maybe I'm just too used to dealing with awpers in CS, but to me the bolt doesn't feel unbalanced or BS at all. And no, I'm not someone who relies on the bolt a lot.

The main point is that it's instant 80 damage with infinite range. As such, it's also the easiest weapon to use, as you only need to fire once for that 80 damage reward, compared to other weapons like rocket launcher where you have to predict, plasma where you have to predict and lead, ic where you have to track the enemy, and even shotgun where you have to get in range.

It's not as bad as it is in CPM, but I'll try to give a few arguments:

To deal damage with bolt you need a much smaller window of opportunity than with all the other weapons, you could wait, pre-aim at a spot and shoot as soon as you see an enemy, only to escape right away with minimum exposure. Whereas with other weapons you have to expose yourself for a while longer giving the enemy the opportunity to return damage.

What this also means is that you only need to hold a small angle to deal 80 damage, as long as you can see a few pixels you're good to go.
The range of the weapon is another thing that can make it impossible to counter. Often the only counter for bolt is another bolt.
The bolt is the only weapon that can deal such unreturnable, unavoidable damage.

But even when chasing someone it can be really annoying if the enemy can just instantly deal 80 damage. When running away it doesn't matter if you have 1 hp or 79, you'll just die instantly, and that is odd imo.

CPM had it worse because there was no switchdelay, making shaft to rail a ridiculous combo, basically you could shaft someone then switch to rail for a guaranteed hit for 80 damage.

An example of how I used it to get 160 unreturnable damage:

https://www.twitch.tv/hal_9/v/80788165?t=2h3m30s

Edited by Terifire
Phrasing

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22 minutes ago, Terifire said:

The main point is that it's instant 80 damage with infinite range. As such, it's also the easiest weapon to use, as you only need to fire once for that 80 damage reward, compared to other weapons like rocket launcher where you have to predict, plasma where you have to predict and lead, ic where you have to track the enemy, and even shotgun where you have to get in range.

It's not as bad as it is in CPM, but I'll try to give a few arguments:

To deal damage with bolt you need a much smaller window of opportunity than with all the other weapons, you could wait, pre-aim at a spot and shoot as soon as you see an enemy, only to escape right away with minimum exposure. Whereas with other weapons you have to expose yourself for a while longer giving the enemy the opportunity to return damage.

What this also means is that you only need to hold a small angle to deal 80 damage, as long as you can see a few pixels you're good to go.
The range of the weapon is another thing that can make it impossible to counter. Often the only counter for bolt is another bolt.
The bolt is the only weapon that can deal such unreturnable, unavoidable damage.

But even when chasing someone it can be really annoying if the enemy can just instantly deal 80 damage. When running away it doesn't matter if you have 1 hp or 79, you'll just die instantly, and that is odd imo.

CPM had it worse because there was no switchdelay, making shaft to rail a ridiculous combo, basically you could shaft someone then switch to rail for a guaranteed hit for 80 damage.

An example of how I used it to get 160 unreturnable damage:

https://www.twitch.tv/hal_9/v/80788165?t=2h3m30s

I can see your point, but isn't is so that bolt does this 80dmg, but not more or less. It takes a lot of time to bring someone down with just bolt, and honestly I think it's impossible, except to finish someone running off.

RL, IC can do much more than this 80dmg, at a higher risk surely, but that's also frustrating to see your hp melt down from 150 in some moments...

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Just now, Ceres said:

I can see your point, but isn't is so that bolt does this 80dmg, but not more or less. It takes a lot of time to bring someone down with just bolt, and honestly I think it's impossible, except to finish someone running off.

RL, IC can do much more than this 80dmg, at a higher risk surely, but that's also frustrating to see your hp melt down from 150 in some moments...

It's not about the total damage, it's the fact that it's free, unpunishable damage that bothers me.

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6 minutes ago, Ceres said:

To throw out how I feel inside... <_<

I think this game would be much better if they remove IC, instead of argueing about bolt, which has been an essential weapon ever since...

Why do you think it would be better if they removed IC?

And bolt has been essential weapon ever since what or when?

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12 minutes ago, Zohd said:

Bolt with charge up mechanics:

0% 40 dmg

100% 80 dmg

charge up time to 100% 1sec (0.25s +10dmg)

reload 0.5sec

Something like this, though if it has a charge up time I wouldn't mind it being a bit more powerful.
Maybe faster reload or 90 full charge damage.

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2 hours ago, Terifire said:

It's not about the total damage, it's the fact that it's free, unpunishable damage that bothers me.

Its not free, unpunishable damage unless you allow it yourself by playing dumb.

And you also seem to forget everytime that people cant hit 100% bolts and the risk of missing if in range of op-gun or rockets is pretty shitty situation.

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3 minutes ago, danskq said:

Its not free, unpunishable damage unless you allow it yourself by playing dumb.

This is simply not true, there are plenty of situations where you can get hit by bolt without returning damage unless you hide in a corner for 10 minutes.
You can't stay hidden from all bolt angles for that long.

And yeah ofcourse you're at risk if you miss a close range bolt, but perhaps it's dumb to use bolt in that situation anyway. Bolt is the only weapon that deals instant 80 damage at ANY range. Don't tell me there's any punishment if you get hit from across the map.

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5 minutes ago, Terifire said:

This is simply not true, there are plenty of situations where you can get hit by bolt without returning damage unless you hide in a corner for 10 minutes.
You can't stay hidden from all bolt angles for that long.

And yeah ofcourse you're at risk if you miss a close range bolt, but perhaps it's dumb to use bolt in that situation anyway. Bolt is the only weapon that deals instant 80 damage at ANY range. Don't tell me there's any punishment if you get hit from across the map.

No, theres no punishment by missing from long range, ofc not. And without bolt there is no way to punish someone who just runs away and stays at long-range.

 

There are also plenty of situation where you can bait the bolter to take the shot, but many ppl arent aware of that and just gives that free, unpunishable damage you talk so much about. Its all about know how to play against bolttihomos.

I can dominate many players with bolt only, but for example, memphis and HAL are players that know how to play against heavy bolters and they give me very hard time to do anything well with bolt.

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1 minute ago, danskq said:

No, theres no punishment by missing from long range, ofc not. And without bolt there is no way to punish someone who just runs away and stays at long-range.

 

There are also plenty of situation where you can bait the bolter to take the shot, but many ppl arent aware of that and just gives that free, unpunishable damage you talk so much about. Its all about know how to play against bolttihomos.

I know how to play bolttihomos, that still doesn't mean the unpunishable damage doesn't happen or is impossible.

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Just now, Terifire said:

I know how to play bolttihomos, that still doesn't mean the unpunishable damage doesn't happen or is impossible.

unpunishable damage happens with nades and rockets too, its not only bolt. And in most cases those unpunishable damages are usually given by mistakes or stupid plays.

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Just now, danskq said:

unpunishable damage happens with nades and rockets too, its not only bolt. And in most cases those unpunishable damages are usually given by mistakes or stupid plays.

With bolt the damage is instant, and there's no range penalty. Whether that's true about most unpunishable damage being caused by stupid plays is debatable.

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2 minutes ago, Terifire said:

With bolt the damage is instant, and there's no range penalty. Whether that's true about most unpunishable damage being caused by stupid plays is debatable.

yes.

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6 hours ago, Terifire said:

Why do you think it would be better if they removed IC?

And bolt has been essential weapon ever since what or when?

Actually I missed my point, I just had the feel that rail and rl were the most basic weapons in q3a, and this feel I'm terribly nostalgic to.

Never played quake 1, but now checking, there's been a lg, and no rail equivalent (just nail gun, man! :P)

I was thinking that ion is dominating close combat, not leaving any space to shotgun and plasma.

I guess I just like the feel of bolt, but I'm not as experienced a player to say if it's balanced or ruining top tier gameplay or something.

I still think that being a railwhore is acceptable and respectable gameplay, at least it's an alternative.

 

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9 hours ago, thelawenforcer said:

I dont understand how you can watch a game of reflex and come to the conclusion rail is overpowered? its rather clear from watching games that everyone that wishes to be competitive is IC whoring atm.

frankly, some of the suggestions are scarily bad...

 

how to counter face first rocket rushing = play mid range fights and shaft, when I duelled you you constantly just +fwded me so all I had to do was wait for you and play the positioning game. It's the same vs qualx. Against Rama we both realised that if we fight eachother on the other persons terms we lose, so he constantly went for rocket ambushes and rushes and I went for longer range open space fights

If someone has better rocket aim than me why the fuck am I going to fight him in close quarters when I can fight him on my own terms? The problem is that rocket knockback is so weird that 1 luck direct in a fight ends it

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I think the bolt is fine where it is especially when you compare its usage to that of the rocket or ic. Shooting it is very punishing with the cooldown and switch delay. I wouldn't care if they lowered the ammo. The charge mechanic is an interesting idea but that almost seems like a buff cuz you could just shoot much faster for 40dmg.

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