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how do you guys feel about rail balance?

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Another thing I realised is that I should never win a rocket fight vs a better rocket player given equal stack but I can get lucky, with shaft you cant get lucky because you have to be more consistent over time and that just doesn't work out. 

I should never be able to +fwd Rama jump on his face with rockets and kill him with worse stack

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A lot of maps put the bolt rifle in a slightly trickier place to get to, which counters any balances issues to some extent. Experimenting with different attributes, such as the ones Terifire suggested, would definitely be interesting. The short burst, longer reload time idea would definitely reward aim more... I'm not so sure about the range:damage ratio idea.

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5 hours ago, FlabCaptain said:

Range:damage ratio seems strange to me, it would open up all kinds of weird situations where you think someone should be dead, but it turns out you did 70 damage instead of 80. :D

I just think it would feel flat out weird having damage dropoff in a game like this.

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10 hours ago, Jaguar said:

A lot of maps put the bolt rifle in a slightly trickier place to get to, which counters any balances issues to some extent. Experimenting with different attributes, such as the ones Terifire suggested, would definitely be interesting. The short burst, longer reload time idea would definitely reward aim more... I'm not so sure about the range:damage ratio idea.

I don't know, it still sounds to me as if bolt was the weapon that is too powerful, so it has to be hard to obtain.

It seems to be ignored, that ion is dominating right now, and should be in a trickier place to get to...

Edit: I think I'm just frustrated, because somehow I think that players with good ion are trying to fortify their dominance, by trying to weaken possible counters...

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13 hours ago, fuglaa said:

Another thing I realised is that I should never win a rocket fight vs a better rocket player given equal stack but I can get lucky, with shaft you cant get lucky because you have to be more consistent over time and that just doesn't work out. 

I should never be able to +fwd Rama jump on his face with rockets and kill him with worse stack

Is that really a problem though? I think the game would be pretty sterile without some unpredictability, and winning a rocket fight against a better player isn't exactly a matter of luck so much as human inconsistency + small sample size. (A guy with a rocket aimbot and consistently excellent dodging would never get 'unlucky' in that way.)

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So, maybe bolt concept is a little flawed, and some minor changes might be to the advantage of this game.

Couldn't it be though, that IC is a little overpowered also, and by, e.g., lowering its max ammo a bit, there would be more space for the usage of "minor" weapons, such as shotgun and plasma?

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1 hour ago, Ceres said:

So, maybe bolt concept is a little flawed, and some minor changes might be to the advantage of this game.

Couldn't it be though, that IC is a little overpowered also, and by, e.g., lowering its max ammo a bit, there would be more space for the usage of "minor" weapons, such as shotgun and plasma?

Ok, let me explain a few things;

It's the bolt concept that troubles me, the fact that it's instant 80 damage across all ranges, in my first post (and later on) I mentioned it could actually use a buff IF the weapon mechanic changes.

As for IC, well you can't really complain about people discussing bolt over IC in a thread that is about bolt balance, but personally I feel that IC could be fine right now, but it's rockets that need a buff so it becomes a more effective IC counter.
I feel like plasma is actually pretty effective at this now too.

That said, I wouldn't mind if they nerfed IC a bit.

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2 hours ago, Terifire said:

Ok, let me explain a few things;

It's the bolt concept that troubles me, the fact that it's instant 80 damage across all ranges, in my first post (and later on) I mentioned it could actually use a buff IF the weapon mechanic changes.

As for IC, well you can't really complain about people discussing bolt over IC in a thread that is about bolt balance, but personally I feel that IC could be fine right now, but it's rockets that need a buff so it becomes a more effective IC counter.
I feel like plasma is actually pretty effective at this now too.

That said, I wouldn't mind if they nerfed IC a bit.

IC is ok, I wouldn't mind it nerfed slightly, but it certainly rewards good aim and the distance limitation is nice. And it looks cool :P

Plasma is cool, learning to lead with it is a nice skill thing and up close it seems highly effective. Not to mention plasma climbing/jumping. Super fun!

As for the bolt rifle... Idk, like i've said, it'd be interesting to experiment but I'm quitehappy with it, personally. @Terifire - is your main gripe with it, the fact that at close range it does high damage, and you consider that to be less skillful. Like an unfair reward, because you should use a different weapon at close range. What if the BR is the only weapon they have at that time? Apart from melée of course but that is point blank only.

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28 minutes ago, Jaguar said:

IC is ok, I wouldn't mind it nerfed slightly, but it certainly rewards good aim and the distance limitation is nice. And it looks cool :P

Plasma is cool, learning to lead with it is a nice skill thing and up close it seems highly effective. Not to mention plasma climbing/jumping. Super fun!

As for the bolt rifle... Idk, like i've said, it'd be interesting to experiment but I'm quitehappy with it, personally. @Terifire - is your main gripe with it, the fact that at close range it does high damage, and you consider that to be less skillful. Like an unfair reward, because you should use a different weapon at close range. What if the BR is the only weapon they have at that time? Apart from melée of course but that is point blank only.

My main gripe with it is the exact opposite. Up close it's high risk high reward (or to be fair medium reward). At range/angles it's NO risk high reward. That combined with it being the easiest weapon is what bothers me.

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10 minutes ago, Terifire said:

My main gripe with it is the exact opposite. Up close it's high risk high reward (or to be fair medium reward). At range/angles it's NO risk high reward. That combined with it being the easiest weapon is what bothers me.

Ah, I see. I find it interesting because I consider it a hard weapon at range, but clearly my aim isn't as good as yours. I guess. Judging from your video(s) on Youtube ;) I agree that it is high risk high reward at close range. Satisfying when you pull it off!

If your opponent has a bolt rifle as well, and you're trying to snipe each other, that's fairly even. And if the bolt rifle is hard to get on that map, and you both got one, perhaps that's reward in of itself, idk. Maybe we need a poll!

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22 minutes ago, Terifire said:

That combined with it being the easiest weapon is what bothers me.

I agree with you that rail is by far the easiest weapon to use out of the majors, but I think avoiding exposing yourself to free angles does add an extra layer to positioning. You also gotta recognize situations where going for 80 damage might fuck you over in the long run, like when the opponent knows where you're coming from and hits a rail back, or he wants to take damage to set up a cycle. It rewards awareness and prediction. It's one of those things that separates high level players from mid level players IMO.

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35 minutes ago, Jaguar said:

If your opponent has a bolt rifle as well, and you're trying to snipe each other, that's fairly even.

This is part of why I have a problem with it, the only counter to it is the weapon itself.

 

36 minutes ago, Pill_ said:

I agree with you that rail is by far the easiest weapon to use out of the majors, but I think avoiding exposing yourself to free angles does add an extra layer to positioning. You also gotta recognize situations where going for 80 damage might fuck you over in the long run, like when the opponent knows where you're coming from and hits a rail back, or he wants to take damage to set up a cycle. It rewards awareness and prediction. It's one of those things that separates high level players from mid level players IMO.

Many angles are completely risk free though...

Think CPM3 where someone stands on rail and aims towards lg, there is no way to return any damage. It is ofcourse possible to avoid any damage if you just sit in RA room for the rest of the match.

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9 minutes ago, Terifire said:

Think CPM3 where someone stands on rail and aims towards lg, there is no way to return any damage. It is ofcourse possible to avoid any damage if you just sit in RA room for the rest of the match.

I'm not that great on 3a, but wouldn't it be possible to walk up to the wall to the left of the 50 and then close the distance with lg? Of course, that assumes you already have lg, but IMO that's a similar situation to being able to rocket rush your opponent in more situations when he doesn't have lg. That's part of the control dynamic imo.

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1 hour ago, Pill_ said:

I agree with you that rail is by far the easiest weapon to use out of the majors, but I think avoiding exposing yourself to free angles does add an extra layer to positioning. You also gotta recognize situations where going for 80 damage might fuck you over in the long run, like when the opponent knows where you're coming from and hits a rail back, or he wants to take damage to set up a cycle. It rewards awareness and prediction. It's one of those things that separates high level players from mid level players IMO.

I'm quite aware that I'm just having a humble low skill opinion, but honestly, your balance problems will be not of much interest to 90% of the playerbase, once the game's really out. 

Edit: I'm sorry, being quite stressed out lately

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2 hours ago, Pill_ said:

I agree with you that rail is by far the easiest weapon to use out of the majors, but I think avoiding exposing yourself to free angles does add an extra layer to positioning. You also gotta recognize situations where going for 80 damage might fuck you over in the long run, like when the opponent knows where you're coming from and hits a rail back, or he wants to take damage to set up a cycle. It rewards awareness and prediction. It's one of those things that separates high level players from mid level players IMO.

Forgot something before. Even if you expose yourself to angles you still have to expose yourself for a much shorter amount of time than you would have to with other weapons.

The point about the opponent WANTING to take damage to set up a cycle applies to all weapons, and is not specific to the bolt.

I also disagree that the awareness bolt requires is what seperates high skill from mid level players, I think that's oversimplifying things a bit (and bolt being the difference between mid/high skill sounds quite scary/bad as well).

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isnt the entire point of the quake weaponset and the way it was adapted for CPM to be a pretty hard RPS style system? the fact that rail is hard to punish at range (its entirely possible though and happens often) is kind of the goal isnt it..? 

you can argue that perhaps the reward is slightly too high, or the penalties too low, but saying that it requires a wholesale redesign in order to eliminate its intrinsic value would probably render the entire premise behind the weapon design obsolete as a whole.

 

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6 minutes ago, thelawenforcer said:

isnt the entire point of the quake weaponset and the way it was adapted for CPM to be a pretty hard RPS style system? the fact that rail is hard to punish at range (its entirely possible though and happens often) is kind of the goal isnt it..? 

you can argue that perhaps the reward is slightly too high, or the penalties too low, but saying that it requires a wholesale redesign in order to eliminate its intrinsic value would probably render the entire premise behind the weapon design obsolete as a whole.

 

Exactly! And I think it's an important role that needs to be filled, but not by the weapon with the least drawbacks (no tracking aim required, no projectile prediction, just point and click).

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On 7/31/2016 at 11:49 AM, Terifire said:

To deal damage with bolt you need a much smaller window of opportunity than with all the other weapons, you could wait, pre-aim at a spot and shoot as soon as you see an enemy, only to escape right away with minimum exposure. Whereas with other weapons you have to expose yourself for a while longer giving the enemy the opportunity to return damage.

What this also means is that you only need to hold a small angle to deal 80 damage, as long as you can see a few pixels you're good to go.
The range of the weapon is another thing that can make it impossible to counter. Often the only counter for bolt is another bolt.
The bolt is the only weapon that can deal such unreturnable, unavoidable damage.

I think this is the best description of why the bolt can be annoying. The best theoretical solution I can come up with is making the bolt emit sound, except not a static one like in QL, but instead emit sound about 5-15° away from where the bolt is aiming.

So if a bolter is covering a 5 pixel path you're about to walk in you'd hear the sound before being in his crosshair, giving you a little heads up. If you read your opponent and are expecting a bolt you could react to the sound, if you don't you get bolted anyway. It'd still make the bolt a good finishing weapon etc. but could minimize the annoying gaying people seem to not like.

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1 hour ago, Terifire said:

I also disagree that the awareness bolt requires is what seperates high skill from mid level players, I think that's oversimplifying things a bit (and bolt being the difference between mid/high skill sounds quite scary/bad as well).

Just for clarity, I didn't mean bolt rewards awareness and prediction through your own usage, that goes for every weapon, I meant that minimising the impact of your opponent's bolt play rewards awareness and prediction and I also don't think how well you avoid rail angles makes or breaks a player, but that it's one part of it.

Also, again for clarity, bolt could use a small nerf imo, but I think that should be done through a better ammo system, rather than the mechanics of the weapon itself.

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thing about systems like that is that the weapon switch time being so short you can largely negate alot of these solutions. you could also have the rail project a laser which increases in alpha over time (thus if you just pull it out, u dont see anything, but someone staring at a corner for 5 seconds would give himself away).

@terifire - requiring prediction was tried with the stake gun - apparently it was not reliable enough to be tactically very relevant; i didnt play reflex extensively back then so i dont really know. requiring tracking a target over time isn't an appealing idea to me either because i find that the fact you can deal damage and limit your exposure to be an important part of what makes rail situationally useful. 

also, as a wider weaponset thing, each tier1 weapon deals damage in very different ways, and require different skills to be truly effective with. is someone thats able to beat you by whoring rail like you whore IC, fundamentally less skilled and deserving of victory than you? i say this with respect for your IC skill.

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3 minutes ago, thelawenforcer said:

@terifire - requiring prediction was tried with the stake gun - apparently it was not reliable enough to be tactically very relevant; i didnt play reflex extensively back then so i dont really know. requiring tracking a target over time isn't an appealing idea to me either because i find that the fact you can deal damage and limit your exposure to be an important part of what makes rail situationally useful. 

Stakegun was bugged in other ways (I was around at the time), but also not a really effective long range weapon because the projectile was affected by gravity. There's plenty of other methods to try out though, as I suggested.

And the limited exposure does make it useful, but I feel that's also where the problem lies.

also, as a wider weaponset thing, each tier1 weapon deals damage in very different ways, and require different skills to be truly effective with. is someone thats able to beat you by whoring rail like you whore IC, fundamentally less skilled and deserving of victory than you? i say this with respect for your IC skill.

Woah there, let's not talk about any kind of whoring in here.

But yes, I do strongly feel that hitting bolts requires fundamentally less skill than hitting shaft. I'm not talking about the positioning aspect here, which is different for both, just the act of hitting the target.
Positioning wise they both require large amounts of skill, but I have no idea how to realistically compare them.
Whether they deserve victory is a whole different discussion, but yes I'd say they deserve it. I'd strongly dislike them for it but it's a valid playstyle.

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1 hour ago, Terifire said:

Stakegun was bugged in other ways (I was around at the time), but also not a really effective long range weapon because the projectile was affected by gravity. There's plenty of other methods to try out though, as I suggested.

And the limited exposure does make it useful, but I feel that's also where the problem lies.

Woah there, let's not talk about any kind of whoring in here.

But yes, I do strongly feel that hitting bolts requires fundamentally less skill than hitting shaft. I'm not talking about the positioning aspect here, which is different for both, just the act of hitting the target.
Positioning wise they both require large amounts of skill, but I have no idea how to realistically compare them.
Whether they deserve victory is a whole different discussion, but yes I'd say they deserve it. I'd strongly dislike them for it but it's a valid playstyle.

It might be the case, that what I'm talking about is the (early) satisfaction of becoming better at aiming bolt, maybe just because it takes less skill than hitting shaft. It takes a lot of time to become good at IC, and if that's the only possibility to be victorious (at least sometimes), it's kind of frustrating...

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I see a lot of reasonable nerf suggestions so here is something absolutely apeshit. Put a huge ass RNG on the bolt, and then have an inverse exponential function where as u/s speed approaches infinity, the RNG approaches 0 but have an asymptote at like 1000u/s so that you basically have 100% accuracy by that speed. This would mean the faster you go, the more accurate the rail, which would reduce sneaky peeking by about 100% and would increase dank high-speed flick shots by at least 420%

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29 minutes ago, BattleSnacks said:

I see a lot of reasonable nerf suggestions so here is something absolutely apeshit. Put a huge ass RNG on the bolt, and then have an inverse exponential function where as u/s speed approaches infinity, the RNG approaches 0 but have an asymptote at like 1000u/s so that you basically have 100% accuracy by that speed. This would mean the faster you go, the more accurate the rail, which would reduce sneaky peeking by about 100% and would increase dank high-speed flick shots by at least 420%

I told myself like 3 times already to stop argueing in this post, but well, just can't let it be...

I think I understand now, what people try to say with bolt being so hatable... I also don't like that sneaky peeky playstyle, hiding around corners, and running off, to hide again. I think that's kind of changing the flow in the game, but maybe that's also challenging.

What I do like are those "dank high-speed flick shots", or any shots close to be called that...

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