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hArD_a$$_nIqQa

how do you guys feel about rail balance?

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personally im a rail hater but the cat's out of the bag so removing it isn't a realistic solution. that being said, i think that there are positive changes that can be made. the first thing that comes to mind, for me, is that its starting ammo and maximum ammo can be reduced. the goal that i have in mind when i think of that change is that a player in control needs to exert a bit of extra effort to maintain a rail-heavy playstyle. additionally, this wouldn't make it any harder to grab a rail and try to get those sweet, sweet 100 dmg shots on your opponent when you're out of control

also give rail/lg hum

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If rail is gonna stay then I'd prefer the CPM one with faster cooldown, it could be nerfed in dmg or have less ammo. Anything but the obnoxious cooldown time. However, above all else. I would love to have Stake launcher back and if that replaced railgun then I would not complain. 

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I heard something about it being point-trace or whatever that is, not sure what it means, but quite often I see rails just barely skim by or actually look like they pass through a player. I don't think it is the hit registration, maybe something with the way the hitbox works or something, I have no idea. If that could be fixed (if possible) and maybe lower ammo to 20 I think it would be fine. I am not a cpma player, but I'm not to sure about a faster reloading bolt, it already gets used plenty and fills its role quite well. It shouldn't be viable for pretty much anything other than potshots or as a finishing weapon.

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I think it is currently balanced. Doesn't do so much damage that you can kill people on spawn, or if they have good armour, but rewards for you for a skillful shot, especially at range.

Also - it is basically an essential weapon. You need a long range situational weapon. High damage, high skill. I cannot imagine an arena fps without some kind of similar weapon.

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10 hours ago, hArD_a$$_nIqQa said:

additionally, this wouldn't make it any harder to grab a rail and try to get those sweet, sweet 100 dmg shots on your opponent when you're out of control

Bolt does 80 dmg.

8 hours ago, tangy said:

and maybe lower ammo to 20 I think it would be fine

Bolt max ammo is 20.

 

Guys, be sure about those things before you want to change it. Ofc bolt gun can be nerfed so players with good aim won't abuse it but in this case weapon will become useless for average players.

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13 hours ago, Smilecythe said:

 I would love to have Stake launcher back and if that replaced railgun then I would not complain. 

We had that in very early builds and it became pretty much useless. High risk, mediocre reward, absolutely not worth it.

I don't think changing the ammo would make much of a difference, it would have to be reduced to 5 for me to even notice. But that might be because i barely use bolt, it doesn't fit my playstyle with the current weapon switch delay (which needs to go).

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7 hours ago, doombro said:

rail turns everything except pure duel into cancer, balanced or otherwise.

 

Duel is best mode for this game, stop broking it because another modes (like movement for CTF).

Rail not overpowered if u enable ur brain just a bit to predict enemy shot u.
Also, where guys that screaming "adapt", or "adapt" only for u (I mean that "guys") and ur favourite weapon - IC.
80 dmg, 1.5s reload time. Changing to lower damage and faster reload time - bull shit, rail very important for 1 sneaky shot, 1 powerful shot, because second shot mostly impossible (in 1 fight context).
Reducing ammo - rail mostly in hard dangerous positions or only in 1 safe spot, so for first - u will get 0 ammo mostly, for second - no matter. All about mapmakers (including ammo boxes spots).
 

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9 hours ago, Jaguar said:

I think it is currently balanced. Doesn't do so much damage that you can kill people on spawn, or if they have good armour, but rewards for you for a skillful shot, especially at range.

Also - it is basically an essential weapon. You need a long rage situational weapon. High damage, high skill. I cannot imagine an arena fps without some kind of similar weapon.

Imo bolt is the least skillful weapon of all, and thus it is weird that it deals such high damage.

My suggestions for bolt are:

Short burst bolt (basically a high powered burst fire ic) that deals 90 damage over 3 shots in something like 300ms, then has a reload time of 1200 ms.
This, I feel, would make it a more skillful weapon to use.

Another idea is that it has different damage/reload time depending on the range of the shot.
If it hits a close range target the damage is high but so is the reload time at 1.5s (to punish bad choice of weapons for close range), at medium range it deals medium damage and has a medium reload time of 1s, at long range low damage low reload of 0.5s.

So it looks like this
Close 80 - 1.5s
Medium 40 - 1s
Far 20 - 0.5s

Reason for this it's that it's odd that one of the easiest weapons with infinite range deals such high damage, the only counter for bolt is often the bolt rifle itself.
 

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2 hours ago, Terifire said:

Imo bolt is the least skillful weapon of all, and thus it is weird that it deals such high damage.

My suggestions for bolt are:

Short burst bolt (basically a high powered burst fire ic) that deals 90 damage over 3 shots in something like 300ms, then has a reload time of 1200 ms.
This, I feel, would make it a more skillful weapon to use.

Another idea is that it has different damage/reload time depending on the range of the shot.
If it hits a close range target the damage is high but so is the reload time at 1.5s (to punish bad choice of weapons for close range), at medium range it deals medium damage and has a medium reload time of 1s, at long range low damage low reload of 0.5s.

So it looks like this
Close 80 - 1.5s
Medium 40 - 1s
Far 20 - 0.5s

Reason for this it's that it's odd that one of the easiest weapons with infinite range deals such high damage, the only counter for bolt is often the bolt rifle itself.
 

Now you mention it, I can actually see your point.. but I think for new players the bolt rifle might be one of the hardest weapons because it is difficult to aim when first start.

You can easily nerf the damage a bit, but one idea might be to make the damage dealt proportional to the distance between the target and the shooter. Higher range, more damage?

I really, really like the simplicity of the bolt rifle. But I would like to test out both your suggestions. The second one, making damage dealt (and reload time) proportional to the distance between the target and the shooter is something that I initially thought of after reading your first sentence (it made me think!).. I would like to try it out but I do think that a bolt rifle shot at range should be rewarded with high damage. And I think the reload time is quite nice right now. It feels right to me. The short burst idea I would like to try out, but I'm not sure it would be in keeping with the 'simplicity' of the weapons in the game. That is one of the reasons why I favoured Quake over Unreal Tournament - I didn't like the complexity and alternate fire modes of the weapons.

Anyway. Interesting ideas! Do we know if the developers will allow for modding weapon attributes for alternate gamemodes in the future?

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I think giving it a slight delay before firing would be interesting.

 

For example

 

point at spot

fire

wait 0.25 seconds

fire at the spot you pointed at when you pressed the fire key

 

Sorta like fake travel time but still hitscan.

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8 hours ago, seekax said:

We had that in very early builds and it became pretty much useless. High risk, mediocre reward, absolutely not worth it.

High risk sounds a lot like bolt currently, mediocre reward sounds like a balance issue - both of which could be easily fixed. It rewarded me pretty well though, it had a similar trajectory and speed as mortars in Xonotic so I had a lot of dope shots with it naturally in those few maps that were brave enough to experiment with the weapon + AFFA/ATDM.

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5 hours ago, Terifire said:

Imo bolt is the least skillful weapon of all, and thus it is weird that it deals such high damage.

My suggestions for bolt are:

Short burst bolt (basically a high powered burst fire ic) that deals 90 damage over 3 shots in something like 300ms, then has a reload time of 1200 ms.
This, I feel, would make it a more skillful weapon to use.

Another idea is that it has different damage/reload time depending on the range of the shot.
If it hits a close range target the damage is high but so is the reload time at 1.5s (to punish bad choice of weapons for close range), at medium range it deals medium damage and has a medium reload time of 1s, at long range low damage low reload of 0.5s.

So it looks like this
Close 80 - 1.5s
Medium 40 - 1s
Far 20 - 0.5s

Reason for this it's that it's odd that one of the easiest weapons with infinite range deals such high damage, the only counter for bolt is often the bolt rifle itself.
 

So, in other words make bolt completely useless, except close range, where it already is super risky.

 

Imo bolt is fine atm, except the reload time is a bit too much.

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10 minutes ago, danskq said:

So, in other words make bolt completely useless, except close range, where it already is super risky.

 

Imo bolt is fine atm, except the reload time is a bit too much.

idk "rapid fire" rail might be fun. i really dont think it would qualify as completely useless either. the difference would be that additional consistency is needed to maintain the same dps you can get now. like if you cut the damage and reload time in half you would need to hit double the shots for the same damage

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10 minutes ago, hArD_a$$_nIqQa said:

idk "rapid fire" rail might be fun. i really dont think it would qualify as completely useless either. the difference would be that additional consistency is needed to maintain the same dps you can get now. like if you cut the damage and reload time in half you would need to hit double the shots for the same damage

might be fun, but utterly useless, especially in duels.

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1 hour ago, Smilecythe said:

High risk sounds a lot like bolt currently, mediocre reward sounds like a balance issue - both of which could be easily fixed. It rewarded me pretty well though, it had a similar trajectory and speed as mortars in Xonotic so I had a lot of dope shots with it naturally in those few maps that were brave enough to experiment with the weapon + AFFA/ATDM.

Way higher risk because the odds of hitting something are an awful lot lower. Short range it's pretty much like current bolt, i.e. a finisher and nothing else and at range you barely ever hit anything. So it basically turns into an out of control prediction shot and run weapon.

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1 hour ago, danskq said:

might be fun, but utterly useless, especially in duels.

do you think that the current design of railguns in arena fps games is at it's logical conclusion aside from damage and reload times? i dont think it hurts to brainstorm new stuff on the off chance that someone comes up with something that is both fun and competitively sound

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12 minutes ago, hArD_a$$_nIqQa said:

do you think that the current design of railguns in arena fps games is at it's logical conclusion aside from damage and reload times? i dont think it hurts to brainstorm new stuff on the off chance that someone comes up with something that is both fun and competitively sound

Nope. But i dont want them to be rendered useless either. Especially ppl who hate, dont like, dont know how to play against it, dont use bolt suggests stuff that would make it utterly useless, as seen above.

IC is propably the most urgent weapon to fix and balance atm. (Burst gun also)

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19 hours ago, Skaarj said:

Guys, be sure about those things before you want to change it. Ofc bolt gun can be nerfed so players with good aim won't abuse it but in this case weapon will become useless for average players.

That shouldn't matter imo. To give a dumb example, it's like saying pawns should be buffed in chess because they aren't as useful to an average player as to a GM. Balance should be based around the top imo.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind less starting ammo. In general I think the ammo in Reflex is quite bad actually. You never really have to worry about running out since the last ammo changes.

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