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Ramagan

Reflex's current weapon balance problem, why it matters and how to fix it

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Hi,

I've been complaining about weapon balance on discord for the past few weeks, I feel it's time this issue gets addressed in a very serious and calm manner.

This post is directly targeted at the devs. @shooter@Electro I've read the roadmap again, and it worries me as I don't see any kind of "weapon rework" in there in any of the future builds.

What follows is strictly my opinion, feel free to disagree with me. (Sorry if some stuff is redundant, just trying to get my point across)

I'll be considering "weapon balance" in a duel environment at top level as I think it's what weapon balance changes should be centered around (Just like in Starcraft 2).

 

The weapon balance problem should be resolved and settled as soon as possible for many reasons :

  • Map making (especially duel maps). It is very hard to make a balanced map that will be played by most in the long run with the current weapon balance
  • (External) Tutorials, really hard to do if weapon balance is not settled, or they'll become obsolete
  • It hinders top level play greatly (Reflex at top level feels like a cointoss, other top players can confirm this).
  • Should be the core cameplay and therefore one of the first "final" stuff, I don't think it's a good idea to start tweaking weapon balance when getting closer to the final builds.

 

On the subject of map making (duel maps) :

  • 90% of duels are played on The_Catalyst
  • There are 3 played maps currently in duel (The_Catalyst, Pocket Infinity and Furnace)
  • It's close to impossible to create balanced maps with the current weapon balance as it's so fragile and inconsistent 
  • No matter how hard you try to shove new maps into people's mouth, they won't play them for more than a week

I feel this could be resolved with a stable and fair weapon balance.

 

I'll now enter the specifics for each weapon, with the current problems and my suggestions to fix them. 

 

Melee :

Problems :

  • Damage is too high
  • Unregistered hits (metal sound is played but no damage)

Suggestions :

  • Reduce damage (100->75)
  • Fix the unregistered hits

 

Burstgun :

Problems :

  • Inconsistent, unreliable
  • Damage is too low
  • No ammo management 

Suggestions :

  • Make it hitscan 
  • Increase damage
  • Reduce ammo (10 on pickup, 20 max)

 

Shotgun (probably the only semi-balanced weapon right now) :

Problems :

  • No ammo management 

Suggestions :

  • Reduce ammo (10 on pickup, 20 max)

 

Grenade Launcher :

Problems :

  • Inconsistent, hitboxes and radius are too big
  • Damage is too high 

Suggestions :

  • Reduce damage (100->75)

 

Plasma :

Problems :

  • Damage is too high 
  • Knockback is too strong
  • No ammo management 

Suggestions :

  • Reduce damage (14->10)
  • Reduce knockback
  • Reduce ammo (40 on pickup, 80 max)

 

Rocket Launcher :

Problems :

  • Knockback is too strong, random and inconsistent
  • Splash radius is too small

Suggestions :

  • Reduce knockback (CPMA and TF2 have a perfectly coherent and logical knockback, please check it out)
  • Increase splash radius

 

Ion Cannon :

Problems :

  • Ground knockback is too strong
  • Damage is too high
  • Not impacted enough by ammo management

Suggestions :

  • Reduce ground knockback 
  • Reduce damage and overall dps (6->5)
  • Reduce ammo/increase rate (75 on pikcup, 150 max)

 

Bolt rifle :

Problems : 

  • Damage is slightly too high
  • Not impacted enough by ammo management

Suggestions :

  • Reduce damage (80->75)
  • Reduce ammo (6 on pickup, 12 max)

 

To sum it up :

  • Some weapons need to be impacted by ammo management (Burst, Shotgun, Plasma, Ion Cannon, Bolt Rifle) as some of them feel like they have unlimited ammo when you pick them up (Shotgun, Plasma, Burst and Bolt to an extent)
  • Make Grenades, Bolt and Melee the same damage (75).
  • Tweak IC's damage and fix (Rocket) knockback

 

I think ammo management and weapon balance should result in encouraging fast paced duels with high scorelines (If people want to have 6/3 scorelines in duel, let them play quake live, not Reflex).

 

I would love to see some of these suggestions in the experimental build for the sake of testing stuff.

Thanks for reading and keep in mind that despite of what I've said, I'm a big Reflex supporter and I've really appreciated the dev's work until now, especially the raw input update.

 

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Agree with the general ideas behind this post.

Personally I think that:

- The rocket hitboxes should become bigger.

- Ground friction should be higher. (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that would also mean IC has less effective knockback on the ground) E: since kyto told me I apparently said the opposite of what I meant and I'm retarded at these things so I believe him, what I want is that you accelerate slower on the ground

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So, basically, nerf everything? I've played Warsow, which took this approach with respect to CPM weapon balance, and I thought it sucked. Weapons couldn't kill shit, people just ran away mid-fight and as long as they had some stack you couldn't do anything about it.

Not that, of course, some nerfs aren't warranted, but I think the overall power level of weapons (in other words, how long it takes to kill someone) is ok.

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i either agree or have no strong opinions on most points - i disagree on two though.

1. the plasma - its finally situationally useful and you want to nerf it right back into the ground :( i mean, with your suggestion, it essentially matches the IC dps doesnt it? at which point would you ever want to use it over IC then? plasma traps are a thing too you know...

2. the rocket knockback - i think rather than just saying "reduce knockback" i think the knockback system should be redesigned. the shitty knockback feeling comes from a purist notion of leaving things entirely to physics. making things predictable and consistent is impossible with the kb system as it stands imo. you will always have extreme kb events, and you cant really do much with kb in a pure sense as reflex has too wide a number of variables that can create extreme kb events. as long as it 'feels' natural, players wont care. Rocketleague has some interesting lessons to share with respect to how they handled the physics of the ball and the players hitting it. While it feels relatively natural, its carefully designed and controlled.

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Things that I see really important to fix:
- Fix melee hitreg.
Reason: Everyone knows how annoying it is to get false positives.
- Reduce nade hitbox (I'd go for 80%)
Reason: Everyone seems to be whining about nades lately.
- Increase nade splash radius
Reason: This would promote using nades more as an area denial (spam) weapon. Right now a stacked player will just jump past them taking minimal damage.
- Increase rocket hitbox and make the rocket combat (knockback?) smoother, more predictable
Reason: Rocket hitbox is ridiculously small (goes through gaps in the pillars on Catalyst). Rocket combat is really chaotic whereas in Q3/QL/CPM it's much more smoother.
- Reduce IC ground knockback
Reason: When you hit 100% shaft on a grounded player they get "locked" and dodging becomes really hard.
- Bring back stake gun

Things I think might be worth trying out:
- Reduce melee damage to 80
Reason: I like the strong melee because it discourages getting to close to a fresh spawn but I've seen a lot of players whine about this. For TDM/CTF it does feel broken though.
- Make IC firerate slower
Reason: This might be the overall problem with IC. I'd say either do this or the ground knockback reduction. In general I don't feel the IC is as "broken" as many players say it is, but I could accept a small nerf to it just for the sake of shutting up the whiners (kinda how I feel about nades too tbh).

As a bonus suggestion. Here's a perfect ammo system I wrote into a ruleset for Q3edawn a few years ago:

- Weapons on the map give you enough ammo to reach the base ammo amount unless you have more than the box ammo amount in which case you just get as much as the box ammo (you got RL with 3 ammo and pickup RL again -> 10 ammo, or if you got RL with 7 ammo and pickup RL again -> 12 ammo)
- Boxes always give the box ammo amount
- Weapons dropped by a dying player give the box ammo amount
- Weapons dropped by a teammate (\dropweapon pls) give the amount of ammo they are dropped with
- In non-teammodes, the first time you pickup a weapon you always get the base amount of ammo

Base ammo
Burst Gun: 10
Shotgun: 10
Grenade Launcher: 5
Rocket Launcher: 10
Ion Cannon: 50 or 100
Bolt Rifle: 5
Plasma Gun: 50

Box ammo
Burst Gun: 10
Shotgun: 5
Grenade Launcher: 5
Rocket Launcher: 5
Ion Cannon: 50
Bolt Rifle: 5
Plasma Gun: 50

The main reason for making this ammo system was to eliminate the pickup order affecting the amount of ammo you get. Whether that's a good thing or not is debatable. It was also designed around duel so for teammodes you might wanna consider backpacks.

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 Melee: I agree

Burst gun: Damage is even a tad too high imo, though it is a bit inconsistent

Shotgun: Pretty balanced I guess? A bit annoying if you're fighting rockets vs shotgun, outcome is often times a cointoss(rockets fault rather than sg)

Grenade: The hitbox is the projectile is too large but I feel the explosion radius is too small, I like how grenades worked in Quakelive(you can't pass a corridor if someone is spamming nades, which is their purpose imo)

Plasma: Yeah, it's total BS right now.

Rocket launcher: Knockback system needs serious changing, it's ridiculous how inconsistent it is (maybe increase projectile volume?), splash is too low

Ion cannon: If you're at short-mid range rockets should beat ion cannon but you have to hit a good direct at their feet to make this happen otherwise ic>rockets at most short-mid fights

Bolt: Damage is fine but the ammo is not, reduce ammo on pickups.

I think another problem you're not addressing is the movement, I'm no movement expert but it doesn't feel very fun to fight with.

 

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I hate arguing about weapon balance because most people I do it with are convinced that there's only one precise way a competitive arena shooter should play out, with no other evidence or basis than that being the ONLY kind of arena shooter that's had the chance to be competitive or that being the ONLY kind of arena shooter that they've themselves played. 

My only problem with the balance is how the weapons are restricted to exaggeratedly strict roles with a bias towards rocket launchers, which renders most weapons redundant in equivalent situations. Rocket is the only weapon which people don't mind being used outside of it's role, people don't mind if they use it for long distance, airshots, splash shots, spam shots, prediction shots, rocket jumps, excessive +backing and the list goes on. In contrast, everyone loses their shit when someone uses Bolt in close distance and then it has to suddenly be made into a risk weapon. The general mentality seems to be that when you lose to some weapon while having a rocket yourself then that weapon is bad and has to be nerfed because supposedly rocket takes more skill than any other weapon and it's that skill that should decide who wins a match, it's that skill that the entire game should emphasize on regardless if the other person has every other weapon in the arsenal. When people say Reflex is a skill based game, what they really mean is your skill with the rocket launcher and whatever insignificant situations you can find use for with the rest of the weapons.

Due to Rocket's practicality and strength, people treat it as a powerup and most maps are required to have two rocket pickups to balance it out. Makes me wonder if there's any point in having any other weapons at all. Playing a game like this feels as dull as playing instagib and while I enjoyed watching duels more for a while, even that is slowly starting to lose it's glamour because it's 90% people noshing it off with rockets. My idea of a perfect competitive arena shooter is not rocket only gameplay, but maybe that's just me.

I get it that this is another value-specific discussion, but I just felt like throwing it out there.

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Ammo, knockback, melee and splash should be fucked with first and see how that plays balance wise before dmg tweaks. I think the problem with hitscan right now is that you literally never have to worry about ammo. You had enough ammo BEFORE ammo pickups and now cells rockets and bolts are pouring out my eye sockets.

Plasma in my opinion is pretty weird too because I've spawned at the PG in t2 and killed someone trying to shaft me which is boring and unrewarding - I feel like I've just cheese'd the dude who has only lost control because of a luck spawn and weird balance maybe lower the projectile speed a little more so it can still area denial. 

BG shouldn't be hitscan, fresh spawns are strong enough with melee got knows what team modes would be like with a decent hitscan starting weapon and melee.

1 hour ago, Smilecythe said:

bias towards rocket launchers

 My idea of a perfect competitive arena shooter is not rocket only gameplay, but maybe that's just me.

People do have this massive hard on for rockets (projectiles are the only weapon you can get lucky with by the way :thinking:) and hate for hitscan and call it easy but can't use it I agree - but rockets and knockback need a definite looking at. I think hitscan dmg nerfs are going a little overboard on tipping the balance and you'll just get rocket rushers in literally ever duel you play however keeping ammo how it is just means you can constantly play mid range and not worry about anything other than hitting your shots 

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I agree with almost everything, except for the damage reduction on IC, that might be a bit too much. Reducing the rate of fire is probably a better idea.

My guess is that electro doesn't have the time to analyze a bunch of matches every day, hence while the tech and art development is steady the gameplay doesn't get the attention it needs. An experimental ruleset update every other month isn't frequent enough. I'd suggest reinstating the testers group with a variety of active players and having them come up with changes for the experimental ruleset. I don't know how much work it is to push an experimental ruleset update, but having it tweaked every two weeks by people who know how the game plays sounds like a good idea to me.

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So basically almost every weapon deals too much damage?
What I wonder is:
Why do you think IC does too much damage?
Why do you think Plasma does too much damage?
Why do you think Bolt Rifle does too much damage?

"I think ammo management and weapon balance should result in encouraging fast paced duels with high scorelines (If people want to have 6/3 scorelines in duel, let them play quake live, not Reflex). "

Why would lowering the weapons DPS lead to higher scorelines? Wouldn't it just be way harder to actually get a kill? Or do you mean that the in-control player can commit much more when going for a frag if he doesn't risk getting destroyed in 2 seconds?

Note that I am a Reflex noob, played like 10 duels. Just curious.

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12 minutes ago, mapamapa said:

So basically every weapon deals too much damage?
What I wonder is:
Why do you think IC does too much damage?
Why do you think Plasma does too much damage?
Why do you think Rocket does too much damage?
Why do you think Bolt Rifle does too much damage?

"I think ammo management and weapon balance should result in encouraging fast paced duels with high scorelines (If people want to have 6/3 scorelines in duel, let them play quake live, not Reflex). "

Why would lowering the weapons DPS lead to higher scorelines? Wouldn't it just be way harder to actually get a kill? Or do you mean the the in-control player can commit much more when going for a frag if he doesn't risk getting destroyed in 2 seconds?

Note that I am a Reflex noob, played like 10 duels. Just curious.

Never said rocket dealt too much damage, I even said splash radius is too small, please read correctly.

"I'll be considering "weapon balance" in a duel environment at top level as I think it's what weapon balance changes should be centered around (Just like in Starcraft 2)." 

This line is important, right now at top level :

  • The game is slowed down due to lg knockback and dps being too strong. There is also no sort of ammo management which is just plain bad.
  • Plasma's damage is completly off the charts, higher dps than IC, you can win using plasma against rockets at very close range right now, shouldn't be possible imo.
  • I said Bolt rifle's damage is slightly too high, 80 damage for point and click from any distance feels a bit cheap, hence my 75dmg suggestion which I don't think is unreasonable. Also note that this could be solved with correct ammo limitations.

 

Sorry to sound a bit arrogant but you (and possibly more people that will post here) need to understand that top level duel plays differently and some stuff I say might sound crazy from your perspective.

 

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I always suggested the 1500ms reload time for the rail gun in cpma over 1250ms and i personally feel thats really made a big difference here in Reflex, another was ALWAYS suggesting less ammo (in relation to the management side) on rail pickups so im very happy to see that being expressed here as well. Plasma needs a higher dps than ion being projectile of course and nerfing it further seems silly to me and for all that is holy the rockets aren't feeling that all great for a number of reasons...

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2 hours ago, Ramagan said:

Never said rocket dealt too much damage, I even said splash radius is too small, please read correctly.

"I'll be considering "weapon balance" in a duel environment at top level as I think it's what weapon balance changes should be centered around (Just like in Starcraft 2)." 

This line is important, right now at top level :

  • The game is slowed down due to lg knockback and dps being too strong. There is also no sort of ammo management which is just plain bad.
  • Plasma's damage is completly off the charts, higher dps than IC, you can win using plasma against rockets at very close range right now, shouldn't be possible imo.
  • I said Bolt rifle's damage is slightly too high, 80 damage for point and click from any distance feels a bit cheap, hence my 75dmg suggestion which I don't think is unreasonable. Also note that this could be solved with correct ammo limitations.

 

Sorry to sound a bit arrogant but you (and possibly more people that will post here) need to understand that top level duel plays differently and some stuff I say might sound crazy from your perspective.

 

Ye sorry I was a bit too quick, edited out the rocket part but you were already replying.

If Plasma damage is lower than IC then the only use of it would be out of IC range, no? (If you have both) Since it's easier to hit with hitscan. Apart from spamming corridors etc. Isn't plasma meant to be the hard to hit but potentially very lethal weapon? Or do you think Plasma should definitely be a lower tiered weapon? Why shouldn't it be possible to win a fight vs rockets with plasma? I've won plenty of Shotgun vs Rockets duels by dodging the rockets well enough.

Why does 80 damage feel cheap? Cause the matches turn into railfests, or that it's too easy to +back with rail?

I just feel like you could develop your arguments a bit.

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As someone who hardly plays duels I disagree with @Ramagan's assertion that weapons must be balanced around duel alone.

That being said I do agree with nearly all the suggestions made exept the burst gun one: a strong starting weapon promotes cess in TDM which sould be avoid imo. Also while I agree that the PG might be too strong atm the damage nerf seems a bit too drastic (12 maybe?).

Again the ammo management may be an issue for duels but that doesn't mean it is for team modes. That being said I guess the amount of munitions on pickups could be mode-dependant without hurting the overall feeling of the game.

Anyway I do agree that testing these changes (including @Kyto's suggestion about nade splash) in experimental ruleset would be good.

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What's your reasoning for increasing the splash of the RL? They already increased it once and even then I thought it was unnecessary. 

I do agree the hitboxes of rockets need some work tho. Hitting directs/airshots seems like a fluke at this point.

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Glad to see high skill players taking the initiative to make formal suggestions like this. While I have my own opinions regarding overall balance, I can only speak from experience to about mid-level competitive play. Top-down balance is by far the best approach, so I will let those players speak here. I will echo that some of the best balance changes can be made with ammo management.

I can't express enough how valuable it would be if Rama, Kyto, and other top level players who are active and intelligent in regard to design intent with Reflex's sandbox could have weekly/bi-weekly formal discussions and propose unified changes directly to Shooter/Electro to incorporate into experimental. The sooner sandbox balance is "finalized" the better, in terms of creating tutorials and stabilizing the experience for new players.

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agree with the points on ammo and consistency. despite ammo being added to a good chunk of maps by now, the ammo mechanics haven't been modified and you're able to hoard ammo with ease. disagree with a lot of the damage nerfs, plasma in particular. before the most recent buffs i would have picked the burst gun in a fight over plasma.

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3 hours ago, Smilecythe said:

Rocket is the only weapon which people don't mind being used outside of it's role, people don't mind if they use it for long distance, airshots, splash shots, spam shots, prediction shots, rocket jumps, excessive +backing and the list goes on.

I wonder if I'm crazy for thinking 10 rockets at pickup is too much? Considering it's massive damage, 6 to 8 should be enough. Anytime you waste more than about six rockets in a fight without getting a kill, you're probably using the wrong weapon, and just shooting rockets into the general direction where you think your opponent might show up (which happens all the time because of all the rockets you have available) is not skill in my opinion. It's mostly down to luck if and when you get a direct hit this way.

Edit: Or maybe this is a map problem, I'm not sure. I.e. that there are too many rocket and rocket ammo pickups available.

 

Edited by Mangemongen

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IMO

The 50% self damage im not sure I like as it makes it so you can kamakazi more into your enemy point blank with rockets and nades, maybe 75% could change that. I like the tactic of getting very close to stop an enemy from using rockets as they will self damage, in reflex right now that isn't a thing.


Ammo count is too high for rockets and shotgun, 5 Rockets on pickup maybe?

Player on player collisions feel like ass

Getting knocked back by anything with ping over 50 feels like ass (Maybe its not predicted yet)

Melee dmg to 95, I think players should be punished for running around with no weapon but also the reverse, players should be punished for getting in mele range.

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There's plenty of other ways to tweak balance, besides cooldown, dmg, hitbox, ammo and so on. As far as I know, we have always been stuck in one particular system where each weapon gets tested out how they perform as individual weapons in comparison to other weapons and how they're practical in all of their respective situations and roles. In such a system one weapon will always stand out above others. In Reflex this would definitely be the rocket. In Quake Live, I would argue it's the LG.

I see very little discussion about combinations of weapons, which in Reflex's case is pretty much IC + RL/Bolt. Why can you combo those weapons in first place? It's because you can't switch weapons during a cooldown delay and this delay is very short for plasma and IC - so this gives the illusion of weapon combos. This can easily become a balance issue, since IC and Rocket are the strongest weapons in the arsenal. Being able to combo between them can't be good right? And to battle this, you have to make all kinds of annoying nerfing across different weapons. Would you rather brainstorm values in this current system or be willing to try out a different system altogether? Here's my suggestion in nutshell:

  • What if you could switch weapons during cooldown delay?
  • What if the weapon switch was slower? Quake Live- grade slow for example.

This way you could be using otherwise redundant weapons like burstgun in combination with other weapons such as bolt, RL, GL, shotgun and so on. The balance would not instantly tilt towards the strongest weapons (rocket) as there would be a variety of ways to counter it with a combination of other weapons. This would also make weapon combos more consistent across different weapons, there would not be odd gimmicky combos caused by a variation in cooldown times. This would reward players who picked up multiple weapons and not just one (rocket). And since the weapon switch is slow, it would also reward correct weapon choices per situation - just in a different way.

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I agree with pretty much everything @Ramaganoriginally stated, although I'll need to re-read it, I just skimmed it quickly and didn't think too much about it. I don't play duel much, but if Ramagan says other top level players agree that it is a problem, I'll take that as a fact.

I wholeheartedly agree that weapon balance in this context should be addressed quickly. Perhaps a new experimental ruleset? Especially with training coming in the next update...

I really think that Reflex has the potential to be a popular game both for casual players and for highly competitive players, to the point of pro tournaments etc. Why not?! And I think the rulesets is a great idea, so this should be relatively simple to implement and use in a new ruleset. Particularly things like dropping ammo count on pick up and max ammo for the shotgun. That's probably just a case of editing a file, right?! :D For the devs I mean.

Nod of respect to Ramagan for a cool, calm, and clear post on a topic that often becomes heated and gets reduced to flame wars and nonsense!

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First of all, I agree on the map thing, the problem is the balance keeps changing so it's hard to say whether a map will stay play well in say, a month or 3.

5 hours ago, Ramagan said:

I think ammo management and weapon balance should result in encouraging fast paced duels with high scorelines (If people want to have 6/3 scorelines in duel, let them play quake live, not Reflex).

I strongly disagree with this, there is no reason why scores like 6-3 shouldn't be possible in Reflex, or why people should play other games if they want to play slow matches.
Sure, people get really annoyed when their opponent takes it slow, but that doesn't mean it's an invalid playstyle. The fact that it's even possible to play the game in such different ways is what makes Reflex such an interesting game.

Agreed with all the melee suggestions, and same for shotgun.

As for burst gun, I think it needs more consistency and maybe faster projectiles, but I do think it should be a projectile weapon.

Grenade Launcher

Grenades should have a large radius, but perhaps lower ammo and definitely a smaller hitbox.
It should serve it's purpose as an area denial weapon, but right now it's more effective as a second (sometimes more effective) rocketlauncher.

IIRC it also has a higher knockback multiplier than the rl, or is that no longer the case?

Plasma Gun

Plasma gun recently got buffed, and as of now it actually feels useful. I think we should focus on other weapons first, and give plasma a bit longer to figure out and get used to.

Rocket Launcher

Knockback definitely feels random and too strong, with the enemy occasionally flying straight up into the air leaving him defenseless.
My suggestion is to increase the splash radius (this should have been done when the @Pill_ hitbox was introduced imo.)

Ion Cannon

Ion cannon is indeed very strong vs grounded opponents, but I think we should be careful nerfing the ground knockback. If people remember it was possible to just +forward into the shaft beam and not get pushed back at all in older versions of Reflex.

As for damage, I think we should see how it plays when RL becomes more consistent, because I think one of the reasons many people say it's OP it's because it's one of the most consistent and thus reliable weapons in the game.

My suggestions for possible DPS changes are this:
The DPS right now is 136, changing damage to 5 would lower that to about 115, that's far too drastic of a change imo. I suggest upping the firerate to 1000/40 (fire every 40ms) and keeping 6 damage, giving you about 125 DPS.

Another reason that makes IC powerful is it's fast firerate, meaning there is very little wait time before you can switch weapons and thus making it safe to always run around with shaft out. This can be countered by implementing a cooldown for the IC, where you have to wait 300ms before you can switch to another weapon. This would only apply to switching, so it wouldn't be the kind of cooldown that occured everytime you stopped firing.

Bolt rifle

I've made my opinion on the BR clear in the other thread, and I don't think it's the damage that's the problem, but rather the whole mechanic behind the weapon. That said I definitely wouldn't mind it having low damage, but I'm biased towards the bolt.

And overal, I'd say ammo management should be given more emphasis, so weapon pickups shouldn't give a full clip of ammo.
 

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4 hours ago, Smilecythe said:

Rocket is the only weapon which people don't mind being used outside of it's role, people don't mind if they use it for long distance, airshots, splash shots, spam shots, prediction shots, rocket jumps, excessive +backing and the list goes on. In contrast, everyone loses their shit when someone uses Bolt in close distance and then it has to suddenly be made into a risk weapon. The general mentality seems to be that when you lose to some weapon while having a rocket yourself then that weapon is bad

Quoting myself here to address the point I was making earlier, because it was painfully spot on as illustrated few replies later:

1 hour ago, Ramagan said:

Plasma's damage is completly off the charts, higher dps than IC, you can win using plasma against rockets at very close range right now, shouldn't be possible imo.

You're still gonna lose to plasma as long as someone is good enough with it. What role should plasma have exactly? Long distance? But if you nerf the damage then it's just gonna scale up more useless in long distance too. So why not just remove plasma altogether? I've got a feeling you wouldn't mind.

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My take away from these balance threads: Rail is OP, rockets are OP, IC is OP, grenades are OP, plasma is OP, melee is OP, burst is OP. I think this is a good sign.

But seriously, I do think that the weapon balance in Reflex is in a really good state right now, and I don't want to see a lot of changes. I think reducing the ground knockback of IC would be good, making rocket knockback more consistent and with knockback at more angles (not just straight up or nothing), and making the grenade hitboxes slightly smaller. Maybe make melee 95 damage so it can't one hit kill people in FFA and TDM. Otherwise I'd leave pretty much everything else as it is. I really like that the plasma and grenades launcher feel really strong in their niches, it makes them a lot more useful than in QL and I've actually started paying attention to their spawn locations and making sure to pick them up in duels. The shotgun felt really bad before the last change, but it feels very nice now.

If people remember it was possible to just +forward into the shaft beam and not get pushed back at all in older versions of Reflex.

Isn't the penalty for this supposed to be it's insane DPS? I feel like if you want to keep people away, that's the rocket launcher's job.

Also, the reply box on these forums is still a steaming pile of shit and adding quotes in the middle is hard.

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