Jump to content
Ramagan

Reflex's current weapon balance problem, why it matters and how to fix it

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Ramagan said:

 

  • Plasma's damage is completly off the charts, higher dps than IC, (...)

I agree with a lot of other points You make, but as someone else already mentioned, isn't that kind of the point of a projectile weapon? I certainly can't talk about high level play, but I feel that PG is in a very good spot right now, whereas it was completely useless before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Kyto said:

Things that I see really important to fix:
- Fix melee hitreg.
Reason: Everyone knows how annoying it is to get false positives.
- Reduce nade hitbox (I'd go for 80%)
Reason: Everyone seems to be whining about nades lately.
- Increase nade splash radius
Reason: This would promote using nades more as an area denial (spam) weapon. Right now a stacked player will just jump past them taking minimal damage.
- Increase rocket hitbox and make the rocket combat (knockback?) smoother, more predictable
Reason: Rocket hitbox is ridiculously small (goes through gaps in the pillars on Catalyst). Rocket combat is really chaotic whereas in Q3/QL/CPM it's much more smoother.
- Reduce IC ground knockback
Reason: When you hit 100% shaft on a grounded player they get "locked" and dodging becomes really hard.
- Bring back stake gun

Things I think might be worth trying out:
- Reduce melee damage to 80
Reason: I like the strong melee because it discourages getting to close to a fresh spawn but I've seen a lot of players whine about this. For TDM/CTF it does feel broken though.
- Make IC firerate slower
Reason: This might be the overall problem with IC. I'd say either do this or the ground knockback reduction. In general I don't feel the IC is as "broken" as many players say it is, but I could accept a small nerf to it just for the sake of shutting up the whiners (kinda how I feel about nades too tbh).

As a bonus suggestion. Here's a perfect ammo system I wrote into a ruleset for Q3edawn a few years ago:

- Weapons on the map give you enough ammo to reach the base ammo amount unless you have more than the box ammo amount in which case you just get as much as the box ammo (you got RL with 3 ammo and pickup RL again -> 10 ammo, or if you got RL with 7 ammo and pickup RL again -> 12 ammo)
- Boxes always give the box ammo amount
- Weapons dropped by a dying player give the box ammo amount
- Weapons dropped by a teammate (\dropweapon pls) give the amount of ammo they are dropped with
- In non-teammodes, the first time you pickup a weapon you always get the base amount of ammo

Base ammo
Burst Gun: 10
Shotgun: 10
Grenade Launcher: 5
Rocket Launcher: 10
Ion Cannon: 50 or 100
Bolt Rifle: 5
Plasma Gun: 50

Box ammo
Burst Gun: 10
Shotgun: 5
Grenade Launcher: 5
Rocket Launcher: 5
Ion Cannon: 50
Bolt Rifle: 5
Plasma Gun: 50

The main reason for making this ammo system was to eliminate the pickup order affecting the amount of ammo you get. Whether that's a good thing or not is debatable. It was also designed around duel so for teammodes you might wanna consider backpacks.

bravo, it was TLDR to compare this and rama's post, but I feel kyto has this right on the spot in terms of reasoning. I've been chanting rocket fights are lame and messy for a year now, something needs to be done. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, seekax said:

I'd suggest reinstating the testers group with a variety of active players and having them come up with changes for the experimental ruleset. I don't know how much work it is to push an experimental ruleset update, but having it tweaked every two weeks by people who know how the game plays sounds like a good idea to me.

I've suggested pretty much this internally recently. Didn't have the time to gather opinions properly yet, though. Will do so in the coming days.

Also thanks @Ramagan for the thread, it goes in the direction I had in mind when making the post below vvv

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Pill_ said:

- Ground friction should be higher. (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that would also mean IC has less effective knockback on the ground) E: since kyto told me I apparently said the opposite of what I meant and I'm retarded at these things so I believe him, what I want is that you accelerate slower on the ground

THIS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Pill_ said:

Agree with the general ideas behind this post.

Personally I think that:

- The rocket hitboxes should become bigger.

- Ground friction should be higher. (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that would also mean IC has less effective knockback on the ground) E: since kyto told me I apparently said the opposite of what I meant and I'm retarded at these things so I believe him, what I want is that you accelerate slower on the ground

My thinking also tells me it has to be ground friction/+forward that would have to be changed, because if it's just ground knockback (not air knockback as far as I understand), it can't be the pure weapon knockback that's off, right? :)

Edit: don't know much about game mechanics, but maybe player weight increase? (with increase jumping same manner)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One other thing - one-on-one battles tend to be over quite quickly, which I think may be due to the general OPness of weapons across the board. Once you engage, there is little chance to evade. Don't get me wrong, you can do, but for a game that emphasises movement and jumping and speed, it feels like you don't always have a chance of using that to your advantage. Like if you spawn, and there's a fight going on near you, and you need to get away... if you get spotted you might well not stand a chance. Depends greatly on the map, of course.. but perhaps a general nerf to damage levels across the board (which people in this thread seem to have agreed upon) would be a good thing.

Also if you are going to change balance, is it not best to do it all at once. If you do some weapons at first, and then say 'ok this is good, let's change the other weapons', then the latter changes could directly impact the former changes? Initially i thought the former was best, but thinking about itt, isn't it better to revamp completely, and then tweak from there?

Nerfing damage across the board would extend battles and allow for more creativity, evasion, and tactics... I think?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, fuglaa said:

nerfing time to kill too much means you can just run indefinitely and punish game becomes weaker 

True. That is another balance to be struck. It would need a lot of analysis from games to figure out a good balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps keep all the weapons as they are but small changes to the rocket and knockback such as it being a tad bigger as a physical object and more consistent with the knocking players around and as that happens i'll think everyone will find the other weapons will slot into place much better definately addressing the apparent reliability of ion. Ammo wise small adjustments wont hurt but we shouldn't be getting too excited there as it will also depend on the maps layout/placement. Plasma will always be tricky with the diffuculty of use vs reward factor but god damn do i enjoy the movement options it gives :D!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ceres said:

balance and weapon concept are two different things, to my mind.

When terifire was talking about mechanics of the bolt rifle, he meant that it's instant 80dmg hitscan at any range, which still has zero relation to instagib. Only reload time has any impact on instagib, and even then, barely any as long as the reload time isn't put in either extreme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, promEUs said:

When terifire was talking about mechanics of the bolt rifle, he meant that it's instant 80dmg hitscan at any range, which still has zero relation to instagib. Only reload time has any impact on instagib, and even then, barely any as long as the reload time isn't put in either extreme.

instant hitscan any range = instagib, just the 80dmg is different. Come on you can't say instagib doesn't have any relation to bolt rifle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Ceres said:

instant hitscan any range = instagib, just the 80dmg is different. Come on you can't say instagib doesn't have any relation to bolt rifle.

Instagib could be shotgun or ion cannon right. If it hits, it hits. Although the pellet pattern for shotgun is a thing, but still. Instagib != weapon. The mode could be applied to any weapon. It basically means one shot kills, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ceres said:

Just my final (biased ;) ) 2cents regarding bolt rifle: how can the mechanic behind the weapon be so bad, if there's people enjoying instagib mods?

high-alpha hitscan weapons with pixel perfect accuracy and unlimited range is always going to be a bad idea when you throw it on top of a weapon set that's actually mechanically sensible. instagib is mindless fun for the most part, not that that's a bad thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's also a bad idea to talk about removing a weapon that many people do enjoy. I'm not trying to be an expert here, I just feel that people try to get bolt out of the game, which gives me an angry feel, since I do like this weapon.

And why people not just make catalyst, aerowalk etc... no-bolt style and see if its played?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Ceres said:

it's also a bad idea to talk about removing a weapon that many people do enjoy. I'm not trying to be an expert here, I just feel that people try to get bolt out of the game, which gives me an angry feel, since I do like this weapon.

And why people not just make catalyst, aerowalk etc... no-bolt style and see if its played?

Whether it's played still has nothing to do with whether it's a good or bad weapon mechanic. 

I am not for removing the bolt, but for changing the mechanics of the weapon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the burst gun should be bad and inconsistent to encourage fresh spawns to go pick up shit, right now I still get a kill with it every so often but I avoid using it.

Melee damage is fine, it helps add another way to counteract someone point blanking you with rockets, grenades, shotgun, etc

I personally like the current rocket radius as its already prominent enough and doesn't need a buff.

I would like to see wider blast radius with grenades and wouldnt mind either getting rid of det on impact or reducing it from 100 to like 80 or 75

I would definitely want less IC ground knockback(maybe it would be nice with slightly less damage)

bolt is fine imo

plasma is fine imo

I like all of the ammo nerfs suggested

I like the idea of more consistent rocket knockback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×