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HaraldQuake

Detailtextures

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Hey guys.

I know this may sound retarded but is there any chance we might see some (scaleable) detailtextures in future reflex (for example wood, concrete, metal, stone/rock)? I just watched some of the old Reflex matches on youtube and the game just felt so much more attractive (less flat and cheap) with textures, more realistic colours and seemingly better looking lighting. I know this is the new artstyle and I guess it does it's job but really there has to be a way to make this game look less LEGO (less flat) and a bit more serious and "real". In my opinion the game looks alright as it is but you can see that it had so much more potential in terms of visual fidelity and I know quite a few people who lost interesst in Reflex since TP introduced the new artstyle. I guess there won't be a Reflex 2 too soon, so I really hope something more will be done on that front at some point.

Edit: And one more thing that I just noticed again was the size of playermodels. It was discussed in some other topic (hight of rocket origin when shooting on the ground) and maybe it's personal preference but I must say that I really prefered the smaller models + outlines.

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what drew me to Reflex were not sphinxes, strange "Asian" trees (seemingly Asian means to Australian devs over saturated colors), "snow", etc. ... looking like a really bad comic...

I think we can just ask mappers not to use this stuff but seemingly some like it:

the map might be great but the art-style is just a cluster of bad looking comic images (or LEGO as you said) in my subjective opinion... the percentage of people preferring this is I would be pretty sure of very low... I really can't understand this art-style it's just screaming "Don't buy me!!! (Except you want to play LEGO in this case go on...)"

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I very much prefer the current art-style. Although some might not like it, it certainly gives Reflex a more "unique" style. Having textures leads to a very generic look very fast imo, at least with this engine i believe. Look at UE4 or even the QC stuff .... holy shit those 2 games don't exactly look vastly unique compared to each other.

Also imo making a map look really good takes way longer with textures than meshes.

 

Also... what videos are you speaking of? Nothing somewhat good-looking i can remember.....

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I've never heard of someone leaving reflex because of the art change. The reason for the art change was because its not possible with the money they have coming in to make art for reflex that has high quality textures, so its either development slows to a literal halt as they spend months texturing a handful of meshes and one weapon model or we get materials and the current art style with a faster turn around on assets.

Just think how much it costs to have 3 devs working full time for a whole year and then remember that steam takes 30%, taxes take a cut etc. The game would never be even close to where it is now.

Another reason is that almost everyone was turning the textures off anyway for visibility. Its better to just make maps which are high visibility from the start if thats how people are going to play it.

I personally like the new art style it makes reflex stand out in a sea of textured games which all look similar. I don't think the old art style was bad, it was just average, the textures made the game look source engine quality.

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On 9/8/2016 at 0:38 PM, thelawenforcer said:

I like the fact that the lack of textures leads to mappers using more abstract themes. 

The xy maps (xy2 and leuko) are a good example of this imo. 

dp5, ruin, phobos, and more. You can have a coherent visual style without textures without resorting to wacky abstract color schemes

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On 9/8/2016 at 1:38 PM, thelawenforcer said:

I like the fact that the lack of textures leads to mappers using more abstract themes. 

The xy maps (xy2 and leuko) are a good example of this imo. 

I am not sure perhaps some got me wrong here (just use your post as you mention a specific map) I even commented on the Leuko map that this would be a possible way to go as an art-style for Reflex, or like Simplicity and Catalyst or 421... the abstract style is great in my opinion and perception.

The abstract, minimalistic maps are great looking what I feel as LEGO and not advantageous for the popularity are maps which are clustered with sphinxes, strange snow, or this comic Asian style...

Leuko is obviously an example where the need for 10 sphinxes wasn't felt.

To the question what looked better in the past than maps clustered with the for example Egyptian assets... : grey walls.

So yes I agree textures are not necessary but it seems there is a strong desire to cluster maps with what those LEGO models... no idea where this desire comes from for my taste it's a complete mystery...

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21 hours ago, fuglaa said:

dp5, ruin, phobos, and more. You can have a coherent visual style without textures without resorting to wacky abstract color schemes

I guess those are maps a lot would see as examples of LEGO maps...

You posted this stream in the IC thread, I was skipping through it so I am not sure but weren't Kyto and you working on removing all art assets from dp5? (I seemed to me like like that)

The "wacky abstract" maps don't seem to make that necessary...

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18 hours ago, A. Benz said:

Where are you going with this anyways ? 

We get it. You don't like good looking maps . Case closed. 

Have I anywhere stated that my opinion is an objective measure for aesthetical perception? As yours is none like mine your post with your autocratic "Case closed." addition makes me wonder if I want to play this game at all as I don't want to be part of a unfriendly community. Every sentence you wrote (except the question which is none as you just used it to answer it yourself) is either an insult or a arbitrary supposition.

 

To answer you pseudo-question anyway...:

I articulated that I suspect a certain look could be non-beneficial for the growth of the community ergo the monetary situation of TPS.

Further I articulated my perception as one specific case of a player who started PC-gaming only because of Reflex´which might most probably be of a certain value as people coming from CPM, Quake, etc, ... are playing Reflex either anyway or won't start or stop because of an art-style in the vast majority of cases. In my experience I would not be sure if I had noticed Reflex as the shooter that it is as a serious high-skill endeavor is in the western aesthetical perception (what includes pretty much the whole world with acces to internet as globalization propagates the western perception) not associated with a comical look as you know that chess figures are mostly not made of Pokémons models it will be very certainly harder to communicate to a new audience what kind of shooter Reflex is if the art-design is not coherent (related to the common aesthetical perception) with the high-skill oriented gameplay.

 

To my subjective perception of "good looking" I guess I have the right to express it and at least don't imply objectivity like you do in your formulations.

 

An advice to you and all those which liked your post: Play 30min. less a day and get some educational literature on aesthetical perception or argumentation theory and the implied morals.

Who am I to give an advice? No one as every one can.

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On 09/09/2016 at 5:24 PM, fuglaa said:

dp5, ruin, phobos, and more. You can have a coherent visual style without textures without resorting to wacky abstract color schemes

Not denying that, I still prefer abstract maps though - I think it suits the game better. Reflex has no lore or strongly defined 'character' so any themes are chosen arbitrarily. it's also a way to stand out, many games have pseudo historical themes dominate, others more scifi, but none decide to drop realism entirely. 

*edit: that's not to say I'm in favour of eyecancer maps! Simplicity is another tasteful example of abstract styling. 

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1 hour ago, thelawenforcer said:

Not denying that, I still prefer abstract maps though - I think it suits the game better. Reflex has no lore or strongly defined 'character' so any themes are chosen arbitrarily. it's also a way to stand out, many games have pseudo historical themes dominate, others more scifi, but none decide to drop realism entirely. 

*edit: that's not to say I'm in favour of eyecancer maps! Simplicity is another tasteful example of abstract styling. 

Problem is that visually imo you are quite limited when doing abstract styles. . . If they are supposed to look good. 

Imagine if all reflex maps would have an abstract style. Good abstract style. Every. Map. Dis will look dull and boring very fast. 

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same could be said of themed asset packs etc. For example, there are several maps with an ancient egyptian style, same with medieval castles/ruins. 

also, part of the appeal of abstract is that, aside from rejecting 'reality', there are no real limitations except for the mappers creativity and sensitivity to tastefulness.

 

*edit - the realistically themed maps look good, dont get me wrong, and while like fuglaa says, they are internally coherent etc, they arent necessarily coherent as a whole with respect to the overall theme/setting of reflex.

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On 9/11/2016 at 11:20 AM, A. Benz said:

Problem is that visually imo you are quite limited when doing abstract styles. . . If they are supposed to look good. 

Imagine if all reflex maps would have an abstract style. Good abstract style. Every. Map. Dis will look dull and boring very fast. 

good point... if there is the wish to have more abstract maps, an art-style pak to further the possibilities would be great

but then this is something mappers would need to express or players...

ps.hope my last post was not too much over the top... if so it wasn't intended to be unfriendly... sorry if it came over like that...

On 9/11/2016 at 7:05 PM, thelawenforcer said:

same could be said of themed asset packs etc. For example, there are several maps with an ancient egyptian style, same with medieval castles/ruins. 

also, part of the appeal of abstract is that, aside from rejecting 'reality', there are no real limitations except for the mappers creativity and sensitivity to tastefulness.

 

*edit - the realistically themed maps look good, dont get me wrong, and while like fuglaa says, they are internally coherent etc, they arent necessarily coherent as a whole with respect to the overall theme/setting of reflex.

and I have to agree with this point too, to have the same assets on every map with a specific art-style over and over, looks to MY EYE! already redundant and of course that depends on my specific taste but for me to see on every map the same, for the pure gameplay itself completely unnecessary (like every art-style), assets leads rather to the wish to get rid of the for better performance (in my opinion), as far as I know there are not so many people playing on the highest graphic settings to get a taste of how good the Egyptian art-style could look and then is I ask my self if they are for some so good looking but nobody looks at them what for are they made...

I have pretty much the same opinion like lawenforcer concerning the possibilities of abstract arenas in which our futuristic robots get thrown...

Yes there is no lore but to me it fits futuristic robots pretty good to battle it out in an abstract world... plus better performance...

And I want to add that I of course appreciate the devs work to get all those art-styles for the mappers done, that appreciation doesn't change just because I have a different subjective taste...

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As long as maps are somewhat detailed, modern looking and have some visual depth (grid or models on floors and walls and high poly geometry) like on dp6, dp4, ruin, phobos, ashur, Fusion I think it looks pleasing and well designed. I agree that early reflex looked simple and unfinished but it had normalmaps on it's grid textures which added depth and a more realistic feel. Persoanlly I am sick of playing Campgrounds and other old flat and minimalistic looking maps. I want to play new maps which have visual depth and extensively featured style.

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2 hours ago, spessu_sb said:

This will be very much missed.

How can you miss that never existed in a first place? :D

Anyway, concept art is never same as actual result.

Also we would cry about visibility if that's how game would look like.

 

Personally I like both art directions, even if both feel unfinished, but game is in early access. Textures would be blurred out anyway by most players. I would like to have textures on some materials (bump maps specifically). 

What we can all agree that current art direction is unique in it's way. And I think that's great. Mappers are doing good job of making pretty cool looking maps. 

 

Textures have limitations too. They can't replace meshes just like meshes can't replace textures. So I don't think that meshes are somehow worse than textures, it's 2 different things in my mind.

Textures + meshes would be ideal, but we know that's not possible currently.

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2 hours ago, Grybzt said:

How can you miss that never existed in a first place? :D

Anyway, concept art is never same as actual result.

Also we would cry about visibility if that's how game would look like.

 

Personally I like both art directions, even if both feel unfinished, but game is in early access. Textures would be blurred out anyway by most players. I would like to have textures on some materials (bump maps specifically). 

What we can all agree that current art direction is unique in it's way. And I think that's great. Mappers are doing good job of making pretty cool looking maps. 

 

Textures have limitations too. They can't replace meshes just like meshes can't replace textures. So I don't think that meshes are somehow worse than textures, it's 2 different things in my mind.

Textures + meshes would be ideal, but we know that's not possible currently.

I don't think we would cry because indeed people would be running the picmic then who want the non-obstructed visiblity, but to general casual public the game would then also be alot more attracting because "graphics graphics".

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3 minutes ago, spessu_sb said:

I don't think we would cry because indeed people would be running the picmic then who want the non-obstructed visiblity, but to general casual public the game would then also be alot more attracting because "graphics graphics".

But then is it worth the dev time to waste on things that will be disabled by majority ? Also, I'm having doubts that there would be so much more people because of textures. There are a lot of games that have cartoonish graphics and are very popular.

In other topic now Benz is arguing that even small requests are inappropriate now because dev time is so limited and should be focused on important  things.

 

Also, textures now would have to be not very realistic, to match current weapon models and meshes. So I think game would look cartoonish even with textures.

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2 hours ago, spessu_sb said:

I don't think we would cry because indeed people would be running the picmic then who want the non-obstructed visiblity, but to general casual public the game would then also be alot more attracting because "graphics graphics".

If we were to trade the current visual style for The one we had pre.36 the game would look A LOT worse than what it does currently. The textures was cheap looking, and the current style allows for visual consistency across settings- To get the result you see in the concept art you will need a lot more than just textures (and meshes) :)

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