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Global vs Non-Global Sounds

Global vs Non-Global  

60 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you prefer Global sounds or Non-Global sounds for competitive duels?

    • Global.
      32
    • Non-Global.
      28


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Just wanted people's general opinions on the subject and start some hopefully civil conversation on the topic. Game theory discussions are probably one of my favorite things.

To Clarify: I am speaking primarily about pickup sounds, such as Red Armor etc.

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I consider that non-global sounds are directly equivalent to limiting visibility with fog. It's one thing for mappers to be able to place soundproof walls or sound-dampening walls - that's a map-based decision, and I think it'd be a good thing if implemented well - but it's quite another arbitrarily to withhold information based only on range. I'm also not a fan of clocktiming, and losing global pickup sounds in particular is crippling if you want to be able to time by instinct. With an already disproportionately high reward attached to clocktiming, there's no need to increase that further.

Non-global sounds may have their place, but I don't think that place is in a fast-paced, competitive game like Reflex. People talk about mindgames, but ultimately, mindgames based on uncertainty boil down to luck. Also, making it even harder to keep track of a player who hides all the time makes that particular playstyle even more boring to play against. Potentially, having player movement/shooting sounds non-global might enable slightly more freedom of movement for the out-of-control player, but I think it's a major detriment to the game for pickups not to be audible from anywhere.

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21 minutes ago, Qualx said:

I consider that non-global sounds are directly equivalent to limiting visibility with fog. It's one thing for mappers to be able to place soundproof walls or sound-dampening walls - that's a map-based decision, and I think it'd be a good thing if implemented well - but it's quite another arbitrarily to withhold information based only on range. I'm also not a fan of clocktiming, and losing global pickup sounds in particular is crippling if you want to be able to time by instinct. With an already disproportionately high reward attached to clocktiming, there's no need to increase that further.

Non-global sounds may have their place, but I don't think that place is in a fast-paced, competitive game like Reflex. People talk about mindgames, but ultimately, mindgames based on uncertainty boil down to luck. Also, making it even harder to keep track of a player who hides all the time makes that particular playstyle even more boring to play against. Potentially, having player movement/shooting sounds non-global might enable slightly more freedom of movement for the out-of-control player, but I think it's a major detriment to the game for pickups not to be audible from anywhere.

I have to agree with you Qualx, and it makes me glad that I'm not the only one feeling this.
I think that having a range on the sound is very "random" and can it can often times come down to luck as to whether or not you hear the enemy player, or the enemy player hears you if you are positioned on opposite sides of the map. It is uncompetitive to have a system in which you never know for sure if your enemy can hear you or not, especially considering the fact that there is no walk sound.
Additionally, when playing out of control on any map, it is essential to the strategy of the game to be able to hear your enemy and determine when they pickup items, so that you can attempt to sync armors and avoid the other player accordingly, and the current system really inhibits that aspect of gameplay.

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in their current state i think its really too soon to say. non global sounds right now are totally out of balance. Volume falls off far too quickly and first person sounds drown out every little thing

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7 hours ago, Qualx said:

I'm also not a fan of clocktiming, and losing global pickup sounds in particular is crippling if you want to be able to time by instinct.

How exactly do you wanna time by clock, if you don't have an indicator aka global sound,  that let's you time by clock way easier in the first place ? 

 

If anything, then not having global sounds is a big nerf to timing by clock, since you can't actually time by clock if you don't have global sounds. 

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I think some people might be casting their votes with the thought that the resulting implementation would be somewhat like the sound occlusion was in 0.46.2 and not some done right implementation with a proper sound engine like fmod, which the devs have said they are looking at. I think if someone is behind a wall they should sound quieter but not to the point where you cant hear anything. It should be very very subtle.

 

Also quelax is deaf therefore his opinion on sound is void. I also don't think fog affects visibility as much as quelax claims but thats for another thread not this one.

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11 hours ago, A. Benz said:

How exactly do you wanna time by clock, if you don't have an indicator aka global sound,  that let's you time by clock way easier in the first place ? 

 

If anything, then not having global sounds is a big nerf to timing by clock, since you can't actually time by clock if you don't have global sounds. 

info plays and guessing

if i guess someone picked up red at 1:10 and its 1:35 and red isn't up you can guess and just leave

infoplays are hard as fuck with "instaswitch" because if you show your model on their screen they can collect their free 80

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Having non-global sounds just brings more uncertainty to the game. The only thing it adds is the ability to delay a pickup but I don't think that outweighs the cons. Sure you can counter that by making "info plays" where you get into a position to hear an item pickup but I'm pretty sure there'll always be something more important you could be doing at the time (plus it encourages slower play - which I don't think Reflex is about).

It's also not fun if you have to crank volume up, stop listening to sweet tunes and stop using VoIP just to not get fucked over by being unable to hear something.

Global sounds allow you to make informed decisions, manipulate item respawn cycles, follow the game's flow whether you're in or out of control. IMO Reflex has the best in/out of control balance of any AFPS but non-global sounds will definitely tilt that scale in favor of the in control player.

As to whether sounds should be global or just have a larger audible range I don't know but there isn't a single duel map that's being played where I shouldn't be able to hear an armor pickup from the other side of the map.

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Just now, Kyto said:

I don't know but there isn't a single duel map that's being played where I shouldn't be able to hear an armor pickup from the other side of the map.

 

Which is even more reason for us to have bigger maps with more verticality

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I think armor/mh pickups should always be global. Reflex revolves around controlling armor, and from my experience so far, extra uncertainty of a pickup when you're out of control hasn't benefited gameplay in any way.

I am open to the idea of non-global sounds for shooting, jumping etc, like Qualx mentioned.

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Non-global. Information should be a resource IMO, not a given. Gotta work for it.

1 hour ago, Kyto said:

 

Having non-global sounds just brings more uncertainty to the game.

 

I'm gonna be a dick and stretch this argument to its breaking point, why not remove silent movement from the game then as well then?

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1 hour ago, Pill_ said:

Non-global. Information should be a resource IMO, not a given. Gotta work for it.

I'm gonna be a dick and stretch this argument to its breaking point, why not remove silent movement from the game then as well then?

The difference is the out of control player isn't at more of a disadvantage in the case of nonglobal sounds on minor pickups and movement compared to when we had global sounds. The in control player is presumably the one picking up all or most of the major items so they aren't impacted nearly as much by non global sounds on them. Nonglobal sounds on major items therefore have a larger impact on the out of control player than the in control one meaning the out of control player is at a larger disadvantage than with global sounds. With nonglobal sounds on movement and minor pickups (things that the out of control and in control player can both take advantage of equally), the balance between out of control and in control players isn't really impacted. 

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14 hours ago, Pill_ said:

I'm gonna be a dick and stretch this argument to its breaking point, why not remove silent movement from the game then as well then?

I don't think you can stretch it that far. If you're in control you will always have an advantage with non-global sounds: if the enemy gets close to hear something they are putting themselves in danger, if they are far away they lose information on the pickup. Whereas moving silently slows you down and you can't pickup items without breaking the silence whether you're in or out of control. In the end non-global sounds will always be a net gain to the in control player, and I wouldn't wanna tilt it that way.

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I don't think we should even be having this discussion before we get a proper sound system rework. At the moment sound positioning confuses me to no end, it's not only impossible to tell if somebody is above or below, even left or right is very confusing, same for distance. I see all the better players mostly rely on pickup sound, map knowledge and logic to figure out where the other guy is rather than by sound positioning. Non-global sounds add ever more confusion.

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5 hours ago, Kyto said:

I don't think you can stretch it that far. If you're in control you will always have an advantage with non-global sounds: if the enemy gets close to hear something they are putting themselves in danger, if they are far away they lose information on the pickup. Whereas moving silently slows you down and you can't pickup items without breaking the silence whether you're in or out of control. In the end non-global sounds will always be a net gain to the in control player, and I wouldn't wanna tilt it that way.

I have to admit I haven't played too much lately, so I'm not very familiar with how the new sound engine impacts the game and this might be a stupid idea, but I'd say the out of control player can hide pickups as well, if he's smart about it. Even so, I do agree non-global favors the in control player more, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Control should be brutal IMO.

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On 9/10/2016 at 11:49 PM, fuglaa said:

 

Which is even more reason for us to have bigger maps with more verticality

draw a sketch! I am pretty sure there are a lot of mappers which would be interested to make a duel map you guys would see as close to "perfect" for (and to showcase) the highest skilled Reflex gameplay...

now that the 2v2 mapping contest is closed, people will probably work more on 1v1 maps again...

 

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On 9/10/2016 at 0:36 PM, MAD_JIHAD said:

I think some people might be casting their votes with the thought that the resulting implementation would be somewhat like the sound occlusion was in 0.46.2 and not some done right implementation with a proper sound engine like fmod, which the devs have said they are looking at. I think if someone is behind a wall they should sound quieter but not to the point where you cant hear anything. It should be very very subtle.

So, in the meantime, while they figure out which sound engine they're gonna use (FMOD Studio would cost ~$4,500, if they don't want the source code. http://www.fmod.org/sales/).

Can we just get the "global sounds" back. 

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I think the problem everyone is having here is that they got used to global sounds in a game in an alpha stage where it was most likely never going to stay that way. We all survived in just about every other AFPS game without global sounds (some games more than others ofcourse)  and we were simply used to it hence 0 problems in that area. I personally think its rediculous to broadcast all that information AS freely without having to imagine even in the most basic ways where the enemy could be and when approximately a major item was picked up. We all worked it out once upon a time and I fear we are getting lazy >:[

Another point being raised here is yes the maps can be a contributing factor due to its size, shape etc list goes on and I've always stated since my CPMA days that a game of this nature needs more maps like cpm15 for example, something not huge but more than just a balls to the wall approach.

Final note JUST PLEASE REMEMBER its an early access title shit will change and you will have to readjust. I dont like having to do it in an AFPS but really you've all bought yourselves into it.

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On 14/09/2016 at 0:05 PM, LoNeZiLLa said:

So, in the meantime, while they figure out which sound engine they're gonna use (FMOD Studio would cost ~$4,500, if they don't want the source code. http://www.fmod.org/sales/).

Can we just get the "global sounds" back. 

While I'm admittedly biased since I'm strongly in favour of global sounds, I couldn't agree more with this. I've had to stop playing Reflex with the current state of the sound engine; the high frequency volume boost that I use to compensate for my hearing loss is causing the massively over-amplified pickup respawn sounds to be approaching my pain threshold, and certainly beyond anything I can ignore when I'm trying to concentrate. Added to that, with absolutely no (correct) concept of distance in the sounds, I'm really disoriented and it's just not fun to play the game.

inb4 promeus

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3 hours ago, Qualx said:

While I'm admittedly biased since I'm strongly in favour of global sounds, I couldn't agree more with this. I've had to stop playing Reflex with the current state of the sound engine; the high frequency volume boost that I use to compensate for my hearing loss is causing the massively over-amplified pickup respawn sounds to be approaching my pain threshold, and certainly beyond anything I can ignore when I'm trying to concentrate. Added to that, with absolutely no (correct) concept of distance in the sounds, I'm really disoriented and it's just not fun to play the game.

inb4 promeus

I forgot to include the cost of the dev time needed to implement the sound engine, and the time that it will take to TEST and tweak it to perfection.

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On 9/10/2016 at 3:00 PM, Delementary said:

I think armor/mh pickups should always be global. Reflex revolves around controlling armor, and from my experience so far, extra uncertainty of a pickup when you're out of control hasn't benefited gameplay in any way.

I am open to the idea of non-global sounds for shooting, jumping etc, like Qualx mentioned.

this is the best solution in my opinion

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On 10.9.2016 at 9:51 AM, A. Benz said:

If anything, then not having global sounds is a big nerf to timing by clock, since you can't actually time by clock if you don't have global sounds. 

i think i agree with qualx on this one. i played a game of reflex for the first time in a while this weekend, and was completelty thrown off by not hearing pickup sounds.

i know how timing by clock works, from tdm and ql, but in reflex i use 9:xx. my first thought when i noticed pickup sounds weren't always there was "gotta turn on the clock i guess".

its one thing timing 25s by feel, but if its suddenly anything between 50 and 60 seconds, things get a bit wonky, atleast for me.

when timing by clock, you'd just add another 25 seconds and assume it got pickued up on time, works in most cases. doing that by feel just isn't that easy.

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