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Future of stake launcher

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Stake launcher returns hype is over and this nice weapon is in weird place right now. Old players seems to forget about it or don't care anymore and new ones don't even know it exist. I wasn't here when stake was removed first time and I don't know reasons but it looks like same thing may happen again.

Main issues with stake imo are:

  • it have almost the sam color as shotgun
  • there's no bind for stake in options
  • if map have stake it's there in every ruleset but it's available in warmup and arena modes only in experimental_stake
  • it is projectile version of railgun and have the same role as bolt.

While three first points are obvious, last one is more question then statement. For me it seems like stake have same use as bolt, it is more difficult and littile more rewarding but it's still mid-long range sniping weapon. Only exceptions are little extra reach for out of sight targets due to projectile being affected by gravity and lesser effectiveness on extreme long range. I think this is not enough for Reflex when all other weapons are unique, not like other games having 10 different types of machinegun.

I can think of one way making stake launcher more distinctive without changing weapons core characteristics. Currently stake pierces through target dealing instant damage just like bolt rifle. What if stake would stay in target instead going through it. Dealing lets say 20 initial damage on hit, and after few seconds exploding dealing main damage, 80 in this case. This way stake would need different approach than bolt while still remain fun to shoot. Exploding stake could be also used for trickjumping and controlling map to a minor extent. Well placed stake with enough luck/skill could done damage or knock back robot jumping for armor for example. I'm aware this is probably bad idea but I've been thinking about this for a while so why not share this with others. 

Please don't let stake die again. Maybe some mapping competition for duel maps with stake could help.

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Main reason with stake is that it's not rewarding to use - 100 damage per hit is way way too little, it should be 120-130 with slower reload time,devs seems afraid to put weapons who does more then 100 damage on direct hit, but be real here - stake mediocre  acc is 20%-25% at best. Stake is very fun and  satisfying to use , but not rewarding.There no reason now vote exp_stake for games, because difference btw hit scan Bolt is only 20 units.Another solution i heard before is make it powerup weapon - some big damage crazy weapon. Maybe finally then devs will live they'r promise of  " unique powerups" :) 

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I always though it would be better to give it like 120 damage, and have it fire after a set delay once you click so you have to lead your target. ie. like a crossbow or something where you click, it winds up for like .5 seconds and then fires the stake, followed by like a .5 second reload.

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Yesterday I played 4 player FFA on 431 with experimental_stake and I think it was balanced and great fun. The problem is that not everybody had bindings for stake so I was the only person who used it :/.. But seriously.. On tight maps stake is a balanced weapon because it has it's situational effectiness (dealing delayed high damage through angles on mid range while having a slightly faster projectile speed than rockets but more damage than plasma, shotgun or bolt)... I don't think stake should be a boltrifle replacement because bolt is instant hit (high range) and most of the time it's easier to hit and deal damage. Stake combines advantages of RL (one hit high dmg), plasma (high projectile speed which is ideal for direct hits and blocking of tight chokepoints with pre crossfire). But ofc it also has it's disadvantages (reload time and the fact that it's projectile based and it's not that easy to hit in direct confrontations). I don't think stake should be a powerup because even with 300 damage it wouldn't be overpowered enough (carnage allows to have high rate of fire and high damage and stake is hard to hit and has low rate of fire).

I think stake should be it's own weapon (not a replacement) but it needs to become a finished weapon with a nice looking model (I'd like to see a black design to make it's color stand out and to give it a stylish evil looking individual look), weapon and ammopickups and bindings in keyboard options (I think it was 'bind game 9 weapon 9'.. But it has also to be possible to select the weapon via mousewheel).. And the game needs maps which feature the gun. For example some duel maps which are designed around having only 1 rocketlauncher but also a stakegun to counter it. Maybe RL could be placed in a risky place of the map so it's easy to get trapped there (for example make similar things like the boltrifle placements on furnace, simplicity or abandoned shelter)..

I think stake is great in ATDM and TDM. In TDM it can be used to help teammates reach higher positional levels of the map if they don't have RL or PG and to easily kill freshly spawned unarmoured enemies. I'm not sure what people think about spawnkilling in TDM and whether or not it's planned to add 125 health on spawn but I think it would be nice if stake was able to 1 hit kill fresh spawners.

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Is it at a weird place after fair deliberate testing or just due to negligence and misplacement? I made a map that deliberately restricts accessibility to certain areas, if you're not a good trickjumper then you need to depend on stake launcher which is also emphasized by the map having only one rocket launcher and one plasmagun (both in hard to reach areas).

I think what contributes to stake feeling out of place is because they quite literally are out of place. They often replace bolt, assuming their role and place against all map layout intentions. 

 

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I was also all in for stake gun months ago, nowadays i dont know. It can be used for some modes like power gun for sure. But in future it can have better potentional which is Smilecythe showing and use for movement and jumping. It was also devs idea from start i think. Though the idea is huge and there are not maps like dat and its probably really hard add the stake to gameplay of reflex and being used it for movement, jumping , tactics etc not only for "troll" gun...

 

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personally, i think in the end it is up to map architects to design their hallways accordingly to the usage of certain weapons. the nature of projectile weapons in general makes combat with them more engaging and challenging for me, especially if you can use them for movement as well. plasmagun, rocketlauncher, translocator, grappling-hook and many more.

by the way where did the grappling-hook go? :ph34r:

 

 

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Where can I find the Stake Launcher, is it actually back in the game for real now, or just the same gun edit?  Big fan of the stake launcher back when I supported the game when it first hit Steam for $15 Early Access.  Only thing is, I can't find it, so where is it? 

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Bump. Are we ever going to see stakegun in the game? I really want to get the golden stakegun and build some cool 1RL maps with stakeguns. I actually like the gun as it currently is. Please make stake black colour and add models and pickups to the game :)

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4 hours ago, furyaxsfigkjhn said:

Bump. Are we ever going to see stakegun in the game? I really want to get the golden stakegun and build some cool 1RL maps with stakeguns. I actually like the gun as it currently is. Please make stake black colour and add models and pickups to the game :)

Keeping with the current weapons, I think the gun should keep in the same style as the other guns as scifi/futuristic style. But I think if it were a rifle, that might overlap a little too much with the bolt rifle. Since they are somewhat similar weapons, that might not be a good idea.

So I think it should instead be like a futuristic flare gun or revolver. Since the "stake" arches with gravity, it sort of reminds me of how a flare gun looks when you shoot it. Maybe something like a flare gun, but revolver style and longer barrel.

use-flare-gun-1.jpg

It'd also be cool if the stake initially glows (or emits some kind of sparks) after it's shot but eventually cools down if it's stuck in the wall or something.

Maybe make the sound of the weapon like a sort of hollow but meaty sounding "thunk", similar to the grenade launcher but with a more fizzling type sound on top of it. Again, like a flare gun. 

Edited by lolograde

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On 1/13/2017 at 4:47 PM, NicholasWalters said:

Main reason with stake is that it's not rewarding to use - 100 damage per hit is way way too little, it should be 120-130 with slower reload time,devs seems afraid to put weapons who does more then 100 damage on direct hit, but be real here - stake mediocre  acc is 20%-25% at best. Stake is very fun and  satisfying to use , but not rewarding.There no reason now vote exp_stake for games, because difference btw hit scan Bolt is only 20 units.

I think the solution is to increase the rate of fire. After all, if rockets had such a long delay between shots, they'd be pretty unrewarding too. Conversely if the Stake Launcher kept 100dmg per hit, but had the same 0.8 sec delay between shots as RL, then you have a big advantage in damage rate compared to the bolt and it'd essentially balanced on the same principal as the RL except with a big travel speed increase to compensate for lack of splash.

BTW what is the speed of the stake? 2000 or 3000 UPS?

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I think stake currently has the same reloadspeed like shotgun and I think that's fine considering that it should be a situational mid - high range mid-tier weapon.

Edit: On the other hand.. If it's meant to replace one Rocketlauncher on each map, an increased rate of fire or 120 dmg/shot would make sense.

Edit2: Personally I like the concept of having weak, low tier spawn weapons(bursgun, melee), easy to reach mid tier weapons(Quake3 MG, shotgun, plasma, grenadelauncher, stakegun) and hard to reach high tier weapons with few ammo (IC, rocketlauncher, bolt). If reflex had more variety in mid tier weapons, we had more options for different map designs. For example TDM or CTF maps with only 1 RL, no IC, hard to reach armors, 2 Stakeguns or Machineguns.

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It might be neat to try out with 60dmg and faster rate of fire than bolt. Something like UT's shockrilfe but projectile instead of hitscan.

However, the current stake allows you to jump on it if it sticks into a wall. If you increase the rate of fire, then that might make for some silly mechanics (depending on ammo available for the weapon). Might want to lower the amount of time the stake is available to jump on lest someone starts turning duel maps into parkour courses.

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2 hours ago, furyaxsfigkjhn said:

I think stake currently has the same reloadspeed like shotgun and I think that's fine considering that it should be a situational mid - high range mid-tier weapon.

Assuming this is correct and up-to-date (it might not be, I don't know) the stake refire time is 1250ms, which is equal to the CPMA rail. Granted, it is only 250ms difference from the shotgun, but it feels like an eternity in arena FPS time (as CPMA players will attest to).

I agree that it'd be nice to see more mid-tier weapons, though the Stake Gun would need dramatic alterations from its current form to achieve that. Bear in mind that it's current form is based on the CPMA BFG, so most likely the Reflex devs intended it as a high tier weapon. To be a mid-tier weapon, I think it'd have to function more similarly to the Q4 nailgun.

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How about a slightly left-field option - instead of stake, turin it into a crossbow?
So press m1 to fire, with eg. 400-500ms cooldown, then m1 again to reload, with maybe a 750ms reload.

Means that on its own, its pretty useless - however it makes stake jumping and stake combos viable - meaning you have that high-tier weapon thats used often (like the devs might want?) but still relies on the player getting other weapons

Plus on a stylistic choice it gives the weapon a slightly more interesting flavor that simply isn't 'that weapon from painkiller'

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I like HL1 Crossbow but tbh in most games crossbow weaponmodels look bad and/or irritating. I think a crossbow model could be a cool cosmetic item at some point in the future but for simplicity I would chose a design similar to painkiller, but with a more futuristic (warsow style) look.

Edit: Also what's wrong about having 'that weapon from painkiller' when the whole game is full of 'these weapons of Quake'?

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8 hours ago, HaraldQuake said:

Edit: the whole game is full of 'these weapons of Quake'?

Honestly, I think a valid criticism of the game is that because the quake weaponset is such a staple for arena shooters, a new player might find the weapons in Reflex not that interesting. I know the weapons are balanced in a particular way so that the weapons have their own 'role', and I understand why the quake weapons are used, but often interesting/non-standard weapons can become memorable and a good selling point for the game.

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There's other ways to distribute role than just the Quake way though. Instead of one strong rocket, you could for example have two weaker rockets that have their additional behavioral differences, and when you combo them that could equal the strength of that one strong rocket. This could also solve other issues, like the tendency of 'ideal sized and balanced' maps needing to have two rocket launcher spawns.

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