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Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?  

40 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?

    • Yes
      23
    • No
      17


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Hi, recently the developers have been talking about sv_pure(ill get to what this is in a sec)a fair bit in the discord channel. If you would like, you can read about it here 

I have seen alot of varied opinions on discord, and I wanted to make a poll so that the developers can accurately know just what opinions the majority of the community hold on this subject w/o having to decide based on who can caps lock the hardest in discord.

 

What is sv_pure? Basically, its a lock the developers are planning on adding that will you restrict you(when playing on the competitive ruleset) to play on the default game, so any customized hud widgets,addons,sounds,changed material files,etc. Will not work. The console command r_lm_clear(clears the light map,see kyto's stream if you want to know what that looks like) will also be disallowed. You will still have access to all the ingame settings(sensitivity,fov,gamma,gfx,etc.)

 

If I have made an error in what exactly the developers have planned for sv_pure please let me know and I will fix it as soon as possible. All the info I have gathered about this has been from the developers comments in the discord channel. Its still a possibility the developers will change their plans.  

 

Besides voting in the poll(please do) it would be very helpfull if you replied below using this form template. Its very similar to the one ramagan used in the custom ruleset poll which was very well done.

 

Region:NA/EU/AU/JP/EA/SEA

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking:Prime overlord/Overlord/Diamond/Platinum/Gold/Silver/Bronze

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/:Yes/No

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?:Yes/No

Why?Reasoning/Arguments/etc. 

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Region: EU

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: Diamond (briefly :P)

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: I use DP2 HUD and some visual clarity addons

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: Yes

Why? Because I've seen some of the timer widgets available and I'd like a level playing field. Just as long as HUDs and perhaps some custom soundpacks get approved.

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Region: EU

Highest rank achieved in Matchmaking: Overlord

Do you use any customized widgets/HUD elements/particle effects/sounds/etc: Yes

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset: If changes are made, otherwise no

Why: It just feels like a step backwards. What's the point of making the game incredibly customizable and then forcing the player to play with the default settings? I think the idea of sv_pure in the first place was to make the playing field more even by limiting "hacky" addons that give players a significant advantage over others - you don't have to completely throw customization out the window to accomplish that.

Suggested changes:

  • let server owners decide whether sv_pure is enabled on their servers
  • tone down the limitations (personally I think disabling addons is fine, but unlock widget positions, give an option to remove sparks and other eye-candy stuff and maybe allow custom sounds)
  • widget whitelist system with the community deciding which widgets are okay and which aren't, as has been suggested multiple times in the past

Not all of these need to be implemented, if you just make one of them work properly then I'm certain that most people will ultimately view sv_pure as a positive change. If sv_pure remains unchanged, I will guarantee you that there will be a severe decrease in veteran players.

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Region: NA

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: mm irrelevant

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: Yes I use everything

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: No

Why?

I understand the restriction of sounds, although I don't like it.

r_lm_clear issue is an easy fix for the devs. disable r_lm_clear and force dynamic lights + sun, remove them from the options menu. I don't like this either

The hud should not be locked to all default. The vast majority of custom widgets serve the purpose of showing the same, non-cheaty information in a way that the individual user likes visually. The option to use these should not disappear just because a certain few widgets like damage batching, timestamps etc. display unfair information. I like the whitelist idea but sadly this probably cannot work without some community moderator.

 

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Region: NA

Highest rank achieved in Matchmaking: Platinum

Do you use any customized widgets/HUD elements/particle effects/sounds/etc: Yes

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset: Yes

Why: For the majority of scenarios in which this game is played, I don't think this option is really needed. When I log on for the evening, join an ordinary server and start playing games, I personally don't care what addons/custom HUD my opponent is using, since my goal in that setting is simply to have fun and enjoy the game. However, when I'm in MM or participating in a tournament, I would definitely take issue with someone using a widget that gives them a competitive advantage (these include damage batching and timestamps, as Sharq mentioned above). It is these two settings, MM and tournaments, that I think would significantly benefit from adding this command. People will say have a white-list instead, but I think that the most straightforward and clean way is adding "sv_pure".

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Region: EU

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: Prime overlord

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: Yes

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: Depends on the implementation

Why? For widgets there should be a pure check but it's all about the implementation. Should we really lose the ability to customize the game completely? The idea of whitelisting has been suggested and afaik even some ground work on it was done. You could have a general whitelist maintained by the devs (the community, a council or w/e) and allow tourney organizers/server admins to set their own whitelists (if they for whatever reason would like to do so).
For sounds there should eventually be a pure check aswell but there should at least be options to choose from for some of the sounds (hitsounds, killsound, self/team/enemy character sounds). Or just do a whitelist here aswell (really it's the perfect solution).
For visibility allow r_lm_clear, no sparks and disabling of other obstructive eyecandy features then add all of these as options in the menu. I bet almost no one who actually enjoys playing the game cares for all the little graphical details that have 0 informational value. For the competetive players who practice multiple hours in a row or play when they are tired reducing eye strain is a very welcome feature. The appeal of Quake-style games is the deathmatch, the arena gameplay; it's the airrockets, shaftlifts and flickrails they see in frag movies (which usually maximize the graphics anyways). No one is going to skip the game because they saw a screenshot/video/stream of someone playing with a high visibility configuration but they will skip it if they can't see what's going on.

Customization is not bad when it doesn't cross the line to cheating. In this genre of games it really brings longevity to the game. When you get bored about the way the game looks and sounds or feel like having a different crosshair might help you play better you go and tweak your config and the game feels a bit fresher again.

Edited by Kyto

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3 hours ago, Kyto said:

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: Depends on the implementation

Exactly.

A whitelist system really strikes me as the best and only viable option. And yes, that adds work for the devs, but maybe the community can help filter out the crap and ask for things to be whitelisted instead of the devs going through everything. The customisation aspect is so fucking awesome for the HUD, and it's fun to play with sounds from games of yore and whatnot. But competitive play means as level playing field as possible. Completely level, ideally. But this isn't chess, this is a videogame played over the Internet so there's equipment differences and all sorts.
 

3 hours ago, Kyto said:

For visibility allow r_lm_clear, no sparks and disabling of other obstructive eyecandy features then add all of these as options in the menu.

Adding the features we have for addons as actual in-game options strikes me as highly sensible. I'm sure the addon authors would be happy. I hear sometimes there are legal issues when it comes to incorporating community content into the game but hopefully that's not the case here.

Bottom line for me is I want my DP2 HUD and my visual clarity tweaks (I distinctly remember being at yellow armour on simplicity like a year ago in the middle of a duel, and being totally blinded in a firefight. In that tiny moment in time I was like "well wtf, how do I aim". Instantly added a visual clarity addon; never happened again). I don't use any sound replacements but I know it's easy to put in a foghorn sound for the mega timing out. I think they shortened the max length of sounds a while back so you can't have a "THIRTY SECONDS" sound but yeah. Whitelist this shit.

I'm sure we can have the awesome customisation we have now, AND a more level playing field in competitive play. We all know what advantages are out there.

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Region: NA

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: Never finished the finished 10 ranking matches in MM. :D

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: For duel, I use GoaHUD and per weapon settings widget (forget who made that).

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: Yes

Why? The competitive ruleset should be more strict about what widgets can and cannot be used. The casual ruleset is designed for new players who need timers and other assistive widgets to play. They should not be allowable in the competitive ruleset which is what the sv_pure should be primarily focused on. Unfortunately, that means that other custom widgets (like custom sounds, no particles, etc.) might get excluded. I'm okay with that because I think the default game is already very clear and comes with enough official settings that no one should be having too difficult of a time with visibility. 

This is a step in the right direction. I don't think adding sv_pure should be (or will be) the sole and final solution. Some tweaks can and probably will be made. This may also place an impetus on the devs to add some more setting options to the base game (like a slider for particle effects density or something).

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Region: NA

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: Platinum

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: Yes (everything customized ever xd... sounds/huds/particle effects/zoom/r_lm_clear/etc.)

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: Yes

Why?
I think there's a lot of value in a consistent experience between players, both for "fairness" of competition, and for a consistent marketable experience for the game (streams/vods/competitions/highlights/etc.). I think there's an even greater value in the game working perfectly out of the box -- players shouldn't have to move around HUD items and install various addons after they download the game just to get a nice experience that's fun to play on and sexy to look at.

Relative to that later point, I think this is a good opportunity for Reflex to revise the default HUD. I don't think anyone much likes it as it is. It's generally functional, but doesn't look particularly nice, and the default positions of some things need to be changed to for it to be convenient in serious gameplay. Why not have one high quality experience of the game for everyone to share?

Relative to visibility and functionality addons like no sparks or particle effects, zoom, hurtsounds, grenade timers, etc: I don't think any of these things are particularly necessary for my enjoyment of Reflex, and as the devs have already commented, there's already plenty of visibility in the game. All of these addons are just an arms race of not wanting to be at a slight disadvantage compared to opponents, for situations like in a shaft fight on a dark map with heavy detailing (i.e. t7, where r_lm_clear is super nice). I'd argue it's a similar circumstance for zoom and hurtsound and grenade timer and any others -- they aren't necessarily improving the game experience (if they are, it's a miniscule thing :P), they're just offering the slightest of competitive advantages. If they should be available to players, they should be available in the default HUD where all players can easily access them.

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Region: NA

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: Overlord

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: Used to

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: Yes

Why?Reasoning/Arguments/etc:

  • I think the main thing that needs to be said is just imagine if lua/changing all sounds was possible in cs:go or any legitimate competitive game. You need to look at it from the entire game point of view of how illegitimate any game is with the level of freedom available in Reflex
     
  • This isn't a community opinion issue, it's a competitive integrity issue. The Olympic committee doesn't consult the Russian team before cracking down on doping
    Currently possible : http://i.imgur.com/TV6q4kA.gif
     
  • Sv_pure will lead to an improved base game for everyone. Right now flaws with the base game (weak crosshair widget, poor default sounds, and many more) are masked because anyone who cares just fixes it with 3rd party things. It's a pride issue for the developers to allow that kind of system. It's made difficult from a development point of view when players are able to dodge problems with the base game using 3rd party things. The whole process is not overly accessible and ends up with unpatched gaps in the game like we currently have. It will be very apparent after sv_pure what is lacking in the base game and it will have to be improved instead of masked. I think it will also make certain people realize how good the base game really is.
     
  • Having a whitelist system like some are suggesting is a shortsighted idea. Here are 3 main reasons:

    -The largest issue is the management of the whitelist. Who is meant to manage it? The developers are the logical choice, but to be blunt they are so far removed from the community and have a low level of understanding of competitive reflex and would not be capable. So then it moves to them to pick people to do it. Almost any time sv_pure is brought up non tournament/non competitive/low skill players are very involved in the conversation, this is one issue. Others involved in the conversation are additionally invested in lua, they are against it for clear reasons. In these conversations about sv_pure it was typically brought up as exclusively a toggle for tournaments only, and yet even at that point the conversation was dominated by people who never played in a tournament and who will never ever feel the change in their life. As if it wasn't enough, most people including me until recently are uninformed on what customization is available within the default game. Many complain about a lack of customization options available in the default hud that are all actually currently available. Here's the result 5 minutes of tweaking in game hud menus : Default HUD. Not as good as custom HUDs, but again, with sv_pure it will be clear what features are missing. So lets say a group of tournament/competitive players can be selected somehow. Tournament/competitive players are concerned with their own play and not acting in the best interests of the game, so even though they would be qualified they would be bias. It's like letting the fox guard the hen house. Also this group probably wouldn't get along well. A whitelist situation would be a complete disaster, the entire purpose of any kind of pure setting would be ruined by those the change is not relevant to or are just pushing for their own interests. Remember back to the reflexleague days and ruleset wars? Although that was a disaster, a whitelist system for sv_pure could be worse.

    -Actual competitive players either want to gain an advantage for themselves (pushing for timestamps/zoom on the whitelist for example) or simply care about the game being exactly the same for both players (competitive integrity) and the whitelist option does a worse job of this than an sv_pure option by far.

    -Competitive players must be competitive players. There cannot be competitive players who use these settings, competitive players who use those settings. In that case it means nothing to be competitive. If tournament organizers/individual servers are the ones who decide the whitelist all this does is create huge conflict, further lower the legitimacy of Reflex in general, and probably cause boycotts that reduce the number of participants in tournaments and split the community. It would end up being a huge political mess with those who don't have the best interests of the game at the forefront. 
     
  • The developers are mistaken about removing r_lm_clear and not caring about competitively friendly screen effects. Blocking r_lm_clear and seemingly not caring about the particles is the kind of mistake that's unnecessary on multiple levels. r_lm_clear is within the base game with it's effect limited and well known (unlike sound modifications or lua for example). This makes it not a competitive integrity issue and outside the scope of sv_pure. It's a terrible idea for the reasons other people have listed, but this isn't about my own opinion. I can understand a reason for blocking it is to promote a better looking game. This will actually have the opposite effect. Removing r_lm_clear will increase the use of clean maps and make the game look worse instead of better. It's easy to go back and make a good player's clips look good for a frag movie by putting on pretty settings and lightmaps, it's impossible to do this if people are playing on clean maps. It also gives decent players even less of a reason to play MM and backs tournament organizers into a corner. Do tournament organizers try to make Reflex look good by banning clean maps and lose participants? Or do they allow light maps and let Reflex look ugly on stream but not lose participants? The consequences are high without purpose when the fix is simple. r_lm_clear is not as accessable as it should be. Even in newbie nights one of the first questions people ask is "why is catalyst so dark and how do I fix it my gamma is already turned up all the way." Gamma is not a substitute for r_lm_clear. There should be options in the menu for Draw Lightmap [ ] and Minimal Particles [ ]. Sv_pure should be unpopular with babies and cheaters, not with actual competitive players.

Sv_pure is a turning point for Reflex in the right direction. There is now clearly defined competitive vs casual rulesets and the game is able to be taken seriously. It's a very healthy development. Not welcoming this change seems unreasonable considering we've had free reign to modify for 3 years. There will still be lua and customization development by the community, but this time the developers have a reason to pay attention and add them to improve the base game.



 

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 Region:EU

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking:Platinum

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/:Yes I use them because I don't want to be disadvantaged.

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?:Yes

Why?Reasoning/Arguments/etc. 

I think that art, sound and character/environment design and somewhat good looking effects add a lot to a videogames character and appeal. I like to compete in games but for me it's also about having fun and good graphics, effects and some background story keep me coming back to a game.. and just because a game can be made of the absolute minimum I don't think it should be. I like rockettrails, individual playercolors, lights and shadows, explosions, gibbing and blood on walls but I always disable all of that because I get a massive disadvantage when I have them enabled. I would love to have an even playing field (just like in Counter-Strike) with standardized visuals (but I agree that visibility can still be improved: the amount of IC impact sparks is too high and should be reduced, also add an option to regulate brightness of player brightskins and rocketflares seperately to the general environment brightness. It would  be nice, because that way we can have effects while also having important information highlighted.. it would also make the shiny metal floors on T7 way less distractive.. and please bring back the old playermodel outlines and make them an optional thing). Or in general: if you have distracting effects inside a game they should get changed to something more suitable for everyone.

For HUD and Sounds I think a whitelist would be great.

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Region: EU

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: probably silver

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: mix of goa and dp2 hud

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: Yes

Why?Reasoning/Arguments/etc: 

dazed already said everything i would have said

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13 hours ago, DazedSpartan said:
  • I think the main thing that needs to be said is just imagine if lua/changing all sounds was possible in cs:go or any legitimate competitive game. You need to look at it from the entire game point of view of how illegitimate any game is with the level of freedom available in Reflex
     
  • This isn't a community opinion issue, it's a competitive integrity issue. The Olympic committee doesn't consult the Russian team before cracking down on doping
    Currently possible : http://i.imgur.com/TV6q4kA.gif

I agree there's a line to be drawn when it comes to widgets and customization in general but CS:GO isn't a proper comparison because the nature of the game is very different. If you want a better comparison look at other competetive arena fps games. They allow a very high level of customization because it's been realized for years now that stuff like fullbright maps/models, disabling visual clutter (sparks, beams, high picmip) don't give you a clear advantage (and I would argue a lot of these are actually tradeoffs). Customization in a lot of cases also allow to balance out external imbalances (improving framerate by disabling eyecandy, visuals for colorblind people).

13 hours ago, DazedSpartan said:

Sv_pure will lead to an improved base game for everyone. Right now flaws with the base game (weak crosshair widget, poor default sounds, and many more) are masked because anyone who cares just fixes it with 3rd party things. It's a pride issue for the developers to allow that kind of system. It's made difficult from a development point of view when players are able to dodge problems with the base game using 3rd party things. The whole process is not overly accessible and ends up with unpatched gaps in the game like we currently have. It will be very apparent after sv_pure what is lacking in the base game and it will have to be improved instead of masked. I think it will also make certain people realize how good the base game really is.

People have been whining about player sounds and deficiencies of the default widgets for a long time so we won't discover anything new by forcing everyone to use them. This is what the widget system + custom sounds fixed in the first place. It gives the developers time to come up with a variety of options that would satisfy most if not all players (given the size of the community). Why not introduce pure when all of that is sorted out first? Have more customizable default widgets, more options for (or just overall better) player sounds and whatever first seems to be the right order of events.

13 hours ago, DazedSpartan said:

-Actual competitive players either want to gain an advantage for themselves (pushing for timestamps/zoom on the whitelist for example) or simply care about the game being exactly the same for both players (competitive integrity) and the whitelist option does a worse job of this than an sv_pure option by far.

The game will never be exactly the same for both players. You say "competetive integrity" when it suits you... but didn't you have a CRT? Should we lock both players to the same fps, refresh rate and add articial input lag and fakelag to even the playing field even further? Oh and btw your enemy is colorblind so we'll add a filter to your screen that takes care of that imbalance aswell. If not then why are we stopping with "competetive integrity" when it becomes inconvenient for you? If you argue for an even playing field then why should it stop where you want it to when there's features we can add to mitigate external imbalance problems (such as hardware differences). So let's just drop with the "even playing field"-argument and face the fact we have to discuss about every single configuration thing (whether it's sounds, timestamps, r_lm_clear, individual cvars) as a seperate issue when it comes to "competetive integrity".

13 hours ago, DazedSpartan said:

-Competitive players must be competitive players. There cannot be competitive players who use these settings, competitive players who use those settings. In that case it means nothing to be competitive. If tournament organizers/individual servers are the ones who decide the whitelist all this does is create huge conflict, further lower the legitimacy of Reflex in general, and probably cause boycotts that reduce the number of participants in tournaments and split the community. It would end up being a huge political mess with those who don't have the best interests of the game at the forefront. 

Is CS:GO not competetive? The closest you'll ever get to the golden land of even playing field is in a major LAN where everyone has the same monitor, chair and hardware. Yet they still have different mice, different monitor settings (some use color vibrance, resolutions/scaling etc.) and their own configs with also a degree of customization (as is fit to that game).

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Region: EU

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: gold

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: goa's hud, brandon's awards&killfeeds, timestamps, nameplates

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: Yes

Why?Reasoning/Arguments/etc: I agree that gaming experience must be as close as possible for two different players. As Kyto said, there are already and there will always be differences that are impossible to fix. This is not a reason to be permissive, on the contrary we should not add even more bias to competitive experience with a game that relies heavily on configuration and tweaks to gain advantage over other players. In my opinion sounds must not be changed, it is too important in duel. Also for all settings regarding visibility. It should be forbidden to delete visual effects in order to gain advantage. It's ok to be able to customize the game according to preferences, but the tweaking-game is a shitty metagame that I don't wanna be a part of.

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6 hours ago, Kyto said:

I agree there's a line to be drawn when it comes to widgets and customization in general but CS:GO isn't a proper comparison because the nature of the game is very different. If you want a better comparison look at other competetive arena fps games. They allow a very high level of customization because it's been realized for years now that stuff like fullbright maps/models, disabling visual clutter (sparks, beams, high picmip) don't give you a clear advantage (and I would argue a lot of these are actually tradeoffs). Customization in a lot of cases also allow to balance out external imbalances (improving framerate by disabling eyecandy, visuals for colorblind people).

I don't mean to compare Reflex to CS:GO, I mean to compare Reflex to almost any legitimate competitive shooter. The customization options that exist in other competitive arena fps games that you mention are not within the same vein as what is possible in Reflex. Options like fullbrights, visual clutter, colorblind, and r_lm_clear in the case of Reflex, are settings within the base game that are easily accessible and see widespread use. There is a huge difference between these kinds of settings and the unrestricted nature of widgets/lua. Their effects are straightforward, limited, and well known. They are graphics options not unlike a shadows setting, I agree they would not be out of place in Reflex, but that is beside the point. It seems like you are confusing two issues. One being which features should and shouldn't be available and the other being where the line of sv_pure should fundamentally be. Where this line should be drawn is not arbitrary whatsoever. What exists within the base game is acceptable and otherwise not.

6 hours ago, Kyto said:

People have been whining about player sounds and deficiencies of the default widgets for a long time so we won't discover anything new by forcing everyone to use them. This is what the widget system + custom sounds fixed in the first place. It gives the developers time to come up with a variety of options that would satisfy most if not all players (given the size of the community). Why not introduce pure when all of that is sorted out first? Have more customizable default widgets, more options for (or just overall better) player sounds and whatever first seems to be the right order of events.

You are missing an important side effect of sv_pure and also not considering that the current system holds back the base game. We both seem to agree that there are base assets in Reflex that are inadequate like sounds and the crosshair widget. With sv_pure we will both get what we want without the disaster that a whitelist system would cause (that I explained in my first post). There will be the benefits of a whitelist system without one and without the drawbacks. By locking the game to base assets you can be sure that they will be improved quickly. The developers have not been very engaged for some time. The current system not only insulates them from the problems with the game, it prevents them from being pressured into improving anything. The reason there are base elements that are lacking is because people who would complain about it quickly patch them with 3rd party modifications and the developers don't hear about it. I don't think with the current level of development there is any possible way that the issues will be adequately "sorted out" if there is no pressure on the developers to do so. It has been 3 years. Again you are using individual features as a reason to delay or not implement sv_pure, when in reality sv_pure will put the game on a path where we might actually get the features we want inside the base game.

8 hours ago, Kyto said:

The game will never be exactly the same for both players. You say "competetive integrity" when it suits you... but didn't you have a CRT? Should we lock both players to the same fps, refresh rate and add articial input lag and fakelag to even the playing field even further? Oh and btw your enemy is colorblind so we'll add a filter to your screen that takes care of that imbalance aswell. If not then why are we stopping with "competetive integrity" when it becomes inconvenient for you? If you argue for an even playing field then why should it stop where you want it to when there's features we can add to mitigate external imbalance problems (such as hardware differences).

This is a bit ridiculous, hardware differences are in the same category as anything in this conversation. To go back to the Olympics analogy, you are arguing that if competitive integrity is a goal then the committee should force athletes to eat a nutrient low diet so that everyone is brought to the level of the North Korean team. I don't think those who want a fair competition should be taunted by not accepting the "inconvenience" of eating poorly in the interest of competitive integrity. You say that the game can never be exactly the same for both players, then bring up equalizing of hardware that is not the game, uncontrollable, and any any attempt to do so would be a joke (as it seems you are suggesting). The game can be the same for both players, the hardware reasonably cannot. Both sides of the tennis court can be easily controlled to be the same for both players, their physical healths reasonably cannot. Despite that, even though the game itself could be locked down to this level, I'm not pushing for the game to be exactly the same for both players. I'm pushing for both players having access to the same options and the ability for each player to have complete knowledge of what the opponent is using. That is what competitive integrity is, it is not related to how much of an advantage a particular in game setting might give. The line for what specific options should exist in the game is a separate issue and you keep mixing the two. Regardless I've already given my opinion on specific options and it seems to match with yours in terms of wanting competitively friendly settings. The competitive integrity issue is straightforward, suggesting that it's somehow my own arbitrary opinion where to draw the line on competitive integrity or that I am not pushing for outrageous hardware equalizing because it somehow doesn't suit me is rude. It's the same as if a politician argues for measures to improve road safety, and then another person suggests that the politician should reasonably also want cars banned in the interest of safety, and then mocks him by suggesting that the politician only doesn't because he owns a car. 

9 hours ago, Kyto said:

So let's just drop with the "even playing field"-argument and face the fact we have to discuss about every single configuration thing (whether it's sounds, timestamps, r_lm_clear, individual cvars) as a seperate issue when it comes to "competetive integrity".

Dropping the "even playing field argument" has nothing to do with discussing individual configuration things. I don't know why you brought up all the silly hardware arguments if you were just going to finish with something totally reasonable. I know you don't want to lose your timestamps, and maybe once sv_pure is established you and others will successfully argue for the feature to be officially added. Not retaining some 3rd party advantages you might like to is not an argument for an unreasonable implementation of sv_pure that involves some community whitelist. When sv_pure comes, some people will miss their base 25 clock, and others will miss their item timers that worked in competitive. I'm not saying that you are wrong and timestamps would be out of place in Reflex, but the whole point is getting things down to a reasonable place for the first time ever so that features that will appear missing can finally be added in a way that makes sense instead of our current open invitation to cheat town, or players adding features for their own interest in a truly destructive community whitelist effort. In any case, custom modding will live outside of the competitive environment where it belongs. There are plenty of 3rd party customizations that could potentially be added already, and even more will be made. It will all be part of the improvement process of the base game that the currently planned implementation of sv_pure will finally allow. If you open the door to a whitelist system you run into the disastrous and community splitting effects I talked about in my first post. The process must be very controlled on what is added. The best way to promote the right discussions and positive things for the game is to first lock it to a reasonable level, assess the gaps, and then fill them in a conservative way. At this point it will be time to "discuss about every single configuration thing (whether it's sounds, timestamps, r_lm_clear, individual cvars) as a separate issue when it comes to "competitive integrity.""

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@DazedSpartan

Visual clarity, no sparks, colorblind items are literally third party addons that replace base game assets. You're right in that what's in the base game isn't an arbitrary line. Why the line is drawn there is as it implicitly assumes a set of features that are considered ok for competition. Given the argument is "well this is to equalize the playing field" why should we not also equalize everything else possible. It's fairly trivial to equalize some external imbalance factors like higher refresh rate monitors and better connections. If you want an even playing field to the degree of only default widgets locked to their places (or w/e sv_pure is gonna be) then make an argument in support of that position.

I'm just following the "even playing field" argument to it's logical conclusion. It's very trivial to lock your com_maxfps and r_refreshrate to the same level as the enemy's, fakelag has existed forever now and there's a bunch of games where input lag is considered a feature. It's offly convenient you would say one should not follow the "even playing field" argument to the point mitigating hardware differences given you have a significant hardware advantage. It's not a personal attack at all - I would have made the same argument even if you didn't have a CRT.

Your sports analogy isn't compareable. I'm arguing that if your javelin weighs half of mine then that is not an even playing field, it's a different game, just like playing with a 200hz CRT vs 60hz LCD is a different game which you very well know. I'm not hypocritical enough to suggest having double the refresh rate and way less input lag hasn't been a huge advantage to me, an advantage I would always choose over having timestamps or zoom.
Sports teams have the freedom to choose their nutrition and supplements from a reasonable set of options, they are not arbitrarily forced to a SINGLE fixed diet. There's a body that dictates what is considered unfair and what isn't.

It's naive to assume that the devs would give two fucks about pressure anymore. They have not been very engaged because they have moved on. Pushing 1.0 release, pushing ramaflex and now pushing sv_pure are all signs of the game being done. Any change being done after 1.2 is bound to be very low priority. You have it exactly backwards: it's much easier to do binary decisions on what widgets are ok and what aren't than listening to a crowd of crying nerds who all want something you're going to have to implement (unless you plan to ignore them and alienate a chunk of your core community).
It's very naive to assume things would incrementally become base game. There's no community consensus on timestamps, base25-timers, zoom, you name it. People have cried about the sounds forever and it's all fallen on deaf ears. This is really a situation where we can have our cake and eat it too, we can have pure and we can have custom sounds, widgets and assets. The devs don't have to waste time making assets and they can focus on actually improving the game by working on real issues (like stuff mentioned here).
And yes I very much agree no player or set of players should dictate what's whitelisted and what's not (just as no player should have dictated the entire ruleset). It should be up to the devs, and they should have a clue, and if they don't they should ask for feedback. And in any case they should be transparent about why a widget is ok or not. I doubt there's such an influx of addons that the workload for whitelisting would be unreasonable. Also cut the bs about the rampant comp item timers unless you're gonna name names. The community is so small you can count on one hand the players who exhibit personality traits that would even make them suspect.

Furthermore, if a very strict sv_pure is established as a starting point, there is a legit fear it will be next to impossible to add or include anything into it. Similar to when you implement a HUD system that has complete customizability the community will fight tooth and nail against any attempt to change any aspect of it.

Given we agree that a line in regards to customization should be drawn in the name of competitive integrity.  I think we should rather discuss about specifics like timestamps, zoom and whatnot. I can start with something we both agree on: there should be no item timers in the competitive ruleset.

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Region: EU

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: Overlord

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: Yes. No default widgets in sight.  r_lm_clear and several effect changes. Several custom sounds.

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: No

Why?: I don't want timers in competitive. I voted no because there will be a delay where I will not have the widgets I want to play with if they are ever added to the base game at all. r_lm_clear is amazing and I don't know why anyone would ever want to remove it. The game is not clean enough as it is. As Jaguar mentioned close up plasma fights will blind you and I wouldn't say that's intended. Finally, not being able to switch my character sound whenever I feel like it would really suck.

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Region: EU

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking: Gold / Low Plat during early days of MM

Do you use any customized widgets/hud elements/particle effects/sounds/: GoaHud, Brandon's widgets, few custom Q3 weapon and enemy sounds

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the competitive ruleset?: No

Why?Reasoning/Arguments/etc. 

sv_pure: (The version which disables everything) simply shouldn't need to exist. What I and probably most people want is having a list of widgets approved by bunch of trusted people who can read and analyze LUA code, majority vote decides if any widget should be allowed or not. If devs decides to go this route, I want to volunteer on this, but this system obviously wont work if there are no other volunteers around to avoid giving too much power for one or two guys. I really don't want to see the all hard work done with all the widgets to go down in the toilet if everything gets disabled in competitive play.

r_lm_clear: Allowed while mapping, disallowed during gameplay. If the map looks too dark to play without lightmaps, then the map needs to be dropped out from the competitive map pool until it's fixed. The mappers should be the first ones to fix these problems, not the players. Catalyst should be the first map to get dropped out because it's way too dark to play with default settings. 

Custom Assets: Same as with widgets, only community approved assets should be allowed in competitive play. Ideally the devs should address the issues with existing assets first before forcing people to use default sounds and effects. Tune down the weapon effects and adjust/change the sounds which people find annoying to hear like for example the jumping sound which has really annoying high frequency audio and it's quite tiring to hear when you are jumping around all the time.

Some words about the controversial widgets: Devs should at this point really say loudly what kind of widgets are ok for them and which one should be discouraged. Like Kyto said, community is so split on things like zoom widgets and timestamps that devs really need to step up at this point and have the final word if they should be allowed or not.

Edited by GoaLitiuM

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I can't see any problem with the blinding effect of plasma/IC in certain cases, as mentioned by @Jaguar and @xLuftwaffel. As long as it is the same for both players, I don't understand how it can be a problem. You can consider the blinding power of these weapons as a feature, just like knockback for example.

It becomes a problem only  as soon as someone remove it to gain advantage. And it is always the same for every tweaks of this kind in order to be able to see/hit more. Some people are playing games 800x600 in 2018 to hit more efficiently. I think this is kind of ridiculous.

 

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3 minutes ago, Goulox said:

As long as it is the same for both players, I don't understand how it can be a problem. You can consider the blinding power of these weapons as a feature, just like knockback for example.

I really don't know if you are serious with the "feature" part. Either way it's blinding, you don't want that in a game. Especially not when it's competitive. And as Kyto mentioned:

On 31.1.2018 at 10:50 PM, Kyto said:

No one is going to skip the game because they saw a screenshot/video/stream of someone playing with a high visibility configuration but they will skip it if they can't see what's going on.

So, the devs could just add "visual clarity" on the workshop for instance, as an option in the game and it would be good. Given the game tells you about this "competitive edge" before you get to start a competitive match. I Would think most competitive players are going to go through all the options in the menu anyways but just to be sure the game can give you a message about it. If you are not listening to a message like that you can't really complain about your oponent having a cleaner looking game than you, am I right? It's only a problem if it's not the same for both players, so if the non cheaty stuff is added to the game it's all good. We just have to agree on every single aspect of customization, what is cheating and what is just preference. How are we going to do that? I'd say it's gonna require alot of polls and of course Turbopixel has the final word but I hope we can keep customization and "competitive integrity" at the same time.

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7 hours ago, xLuftwaffel said:

I really don't know if you are serious with the "feature" part. Either way it's blinding, you don't want that in a game. Especially not when it's competitive.

"blinding" is not really the adapted word to describe what is going on when someone shoots at you with plasma gun. But yes, I think this is normal (in a certain limit ofc) that plenty of energy projectiles coming in front of your face kind of obstruct your vision a bit. The fact that projectiles are visible and therefore can alter the enemy's vision under certain circonstances is not so shocking.

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Region:NA

Highest rank achieved in matchmaking:Overlord(#4)

Do you use custom widgets/HUD elements/sounds/etc.:Yes

Do you wish to see sv_pure implemented into the custom ruleset?:No

Why? Pretty much everything kyto said tbh. If you really want an even playing field,play halo

 

 

 

 

 

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