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Tiered Armor re-balance?

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If the enemy team isn't capable of just killing you if you come rushing down with 100 hp then your team definitely deserves the snatched armor. I don't see a problem there.

 

Have you had items stolen from you in TDM games before? It's not as easy to prevent as you're making it seem.

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Why is your RA left so unguarded that a fresh spawn could take it, especially if it's enough to turn the entire game around?

1. Depends on map geometry if it is easy or hard to grab it. How close spawn is to RA too.

2. If this is aimed to new players to screw around. You think everyone will be able to stop players from moving from point A(spawn) to point B(RA)?

3. If you manage to protect RA successfully. 2 Pickups in a row will make your own team near invincible already and from there you should keep the momentum rolling to your favor.

Combining point 2 and 3 tl;dr: Too much is being decided either way with an attempt to steal RA. is this fair enough?

 

Enough with gameplay details. There are more that someone better could come up with and I'm not an expert by all means. I Just like to theorize and listen if anyone could counter argument my points someway.

 

What about issues and way how to implement this?

For example: How would this pickup system behave with players who are currently dead when you pick up armors? ignored while they are dead or spawn instantly with armor?

 

EDIT: I'm curious to see how this would work, but I would rather want other things for the game and have this lower priority, that's all.

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Have you had items stolen from you in TDM games before? It's not as easy to prevent as you're making it seem.

I've played plenty of tdm games in CPMA with the best players. It certainly isn't such a big problem as you make it seem.

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I'm all for trying new ideas in any mode of play or even completely new modes of play.  Regarding TDM I hold QW 4v4 TDM as the gold standard.  While armor is an important part of TDM there are many other elements as well such as controlling spawns for easy kills, powerups, health, weapons and ammo (Reflex needs this!).  It's hard to imagine exactly how the changes to armor would play out and a lot of it might just come down to map design.  De-linking location from items such as armor would be very odd and go against control of the map however.  I'm not sure I like it just by my gut feel.  Q2 TDM does something similar where you can train ammo across the map through team mates.  With good teams players then need not leave their positions as they can transfer the needed ammo back and forth through a train of players.  I greatly prefer when rotations, forced movement and such are required as part of TDM play as it makes the game more interesting and dynamic.  It also makes it harder when you need to coordinate movement on a team level instead of being in static positions.  I think any change which requires less movement around the map is very iffy.

 

Of course all this debate is academic until we get better fucking netcode and can play some real TDM!   :D

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Have I helped set a new record for amount of times newborn has replied to a single thread?

 

Anyways, what if picking up the "Global Armor" didn't change the numerical amount of armor that the team members had, but instead upgraded what they already had by one tier? Meaning that if a player just spawned and had no armor, and someone on their team picked up the global armor upgrade, they wouldn't be affected by it. Just an idea.  :)

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..... Regarding TDM I hold QW 4v4 TDM as the gold standard.  While armor is an important part of TDM there are many other elements as well such as controlling spawns for easy kills, powerups, health, weapons and ammo (Reflex needs this!)......

I don't think you should change EVERYTHING, just because it's different to something older...

when there are enough options added to the game to play some proper tdm-matches, it should be first checked if the "old"(as in current) tiered armor system probably just fits perfect to reflex tdm and not disregard it, just because of the fact, that there are ideas for something newer(not necessarily better)...

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Unless you try new things you'll never improve the game however.  This is the time to be experimenting and trying different things.  It's easy to always go back to an old gameplay method that is already known if things don't work out.

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Unless you try new things you'll never improve the game however...

this is implying, that this certain feature(armor system) is somehow broken. don't get me wrong, I am allways for trying out new, different things( otherwise I wouldnt play this game in the first place instead of quake. but with this certain feature, I see the harm, that my favourite mode( tdm, which I am playing since 15 years now) gets somehow "dumbed down" or "casualised".

 

there will be so many more modes or opportunities to change things and go different directions, why begin with THE hardcore mode? tdm was till 2000 and even till 2003ish THE mode where it is.. remember early usa vs europe battles in quakeworld? that wasnt duel nor ctf or any other mode, it was pure classic 4on4 tdm, the ultimate test of skill concerning pure skill and teamplay in a deathmatch game.

 

but what I basically wanted to say: many people already demand many different game modes, why necessarily change THE purest skilltest for teams in a deathmatch in an extreme way it's played, when certainly not the mode is broken, just the lack of players playing arenashooters generally prevents tdm to rise again? there are many modes which are more "fun-based" rather than competitive, where you can try many new things concerning core gameplay(implement team fortress style modes aka weapons factory arena or action quake 2 like modes). but changing the core teammode of deathmatch games in such an extreme way will more harm than do any good just because it was changed because it CAN be change(but probably shouldnt be..)

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Old Quake burnout here.

 

This subject has been an argument for over a decade now so its not surprising it'd resurface with some new blood coming in due to the early access.

 

My opinion is very simple:

 

Tiered Armor+FFA=Good

Tiered Armor+TDM=Very Good

Tiered Armor+Duel-HP&Armor Decay=Very Bad

 

This is coming from someone who's favorite entry in the series as a whole is QW. But despite how I like QW's weapon balance and movement a lot better, I think that Q3's armor system is simply better for dueling. Having to self damage in order to deny the enemy YAs in order to get full maplock is counterintuitive and plain not good for the game.

 

Now the million dollar question is does Reflex want to be a spiritual successor that improves and expands upon Quake, or does it want to just be a straight up CPMA clone? Because if it's a straight up CPMA clone I can guarantee you the game will be a commercial failure. It needs to improve on Quake, taking the parts that are good and making them even better, not just emulate it.

 

What I think should probably be done is to meet the issue halfway and invent blue armor. So in TDM you have what you currently have now, and in Duel you have Blue Armor +50 and Yellow Armor +100, both sharing the same 2/3 absorb. The decay feature will be totally obvious to a new player in one game and it won't take long to realize that the cap is 200 instead of 150.

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I got a bunch of mixed feelings about the global armor idea. With global armors, team effort would be more prominent and when you get some armor you would get a mental boost from knowing a team mate somewhere did something right. Regular tiered armor system however would put team working skills to a better test and as a fan of occasional TDM, I kind of prefer that kind of game atmosphere more. 

Anyways, what if picking up the "Global Armor" didn't change the numerical amount of armor that the team members had, but instead upgraded what they already had by one tier? Meaning that if a player just spawned and had no armor, and someone on their team picked up the global armor upgrade, they wouldn't be affected by it. Just an idea.  :)

This or rest of the team only gets third of the armor? Let me put that in numbers:

 

One who picks RA gets 150, rest of the team gets 50.

One who picks YA gets 100, rest of the team gets 33, in case YA's are globally shared as well.

etc.. I'd rather go with this kind of experiment.

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You could have it go by distance from the pickup. Guy picking up gets 150, and everyone else gets a portion of armor (either 150 or something arbitrarily lower like the idea above) based on their distance from the person picking up. To get the full benefit your entire team has to camp around the red armor, but you can still get a global benefit for item control.

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Old Quake burnout here.

 

This subject has been an argument for over a decade now so its not surprising it'd resurface with some new blood coming in due to the early access.

 

My opinion is very simple:

 

Tiered Armor+FFA=Good

Tiered Armor+TDM=Very Good

Tiered Armor+Duel-HP&Armor Decay=Very Bad

 

This is coming from someone who's favorite entry in the series as a whole is QW. But despite how I like QW's weapon balance and movement a lot better, I think that Q3's armor system is simply better for dueling. Having to self damage in order to deny the enemy YAs in order to get full maplock is counterintuitive and plain not good for the game.

 

Now the million dollar question is does Reflex want to be a spiritual successor that improves and expands upon Quake, or does it want to just be a straight up CPMA clone? Because if it's a straight up CPMA clone I can guarantee you the game will be a commercial failure. It needs to improve on Quake, taking the parts that are good and making them even better, not just emulate it.

 

What I think should probably be done is to meet the issue halfway and invent blue armor. So in TDM you have what you currently have now, and in Duel you have Blue Armor +50 and Yellow Armor +100, both sharing the same 2/3 absorb. The decay feature will be totally obvious to a new player in one game and it won't take long to realize that the cap is 200 instead of 150.

CPMA armor system is perfect for duels. I don't think they're going to change it. CPMA was quake 3 improved and perfected and made even more suitable for competitive fast paced gameplay. Why would you frown upon copying elements from CPMA and prefer taking elements from vanilla quake?

 

 

Alright, so a quick guide about how the armors work for people who are not familiar with it from CPMA (which actually includes a fraction of CPMA players).

 

Each colored armor in Reflex offers a different amount of damage absorption. Green armor is 1:1, so if you get hit in the face with a rocket, you'll lose 50 health. Yellow protects 1:2, so you'd lose 33 health. Red protects 1:3 so you'd lose 25 health.

 

These tiers are actually balanced so there is about one good rockets difference between them. No armor, you'll be dead with a single rocket. Green armor will let you survive about 2. Yellow armor will let you survive about 3. Red armor will let you survive about 4. Combining any of those with megahealth will give you another rocket worth of not-being-dead.

 

The cant-downgrade system is also designed so that you can't just pacman armors unless you're 1) willing to do a bit of damage to yourself 2) so thoroughly in control that you're running YA / YA / RA in order and engaging in enough fights between to keep the run going (although the easy counter to this is to lay low for 25 seconds).

 

Anyway, that's why our 1v1 maps are usually based on a 1 RA / 2 YA / 1 MH loadout. Ideally, the up player controls the RA and the down player takes the YA and MH. Depending on stacks, there is either 1 or 0 rockets difference between those loadouts -- a single good shot can even things up. Which is what the down player should be looking for -- that perfect, patient, predicted moment (not a lucky zerg).

 

I agree it's not the most obvious armor system but it does work extremely well in balanced 1v1 games. If anything about the system changes, it will be aimed at making the system more obvious while keeping all of the existing balances and behaviors. Now is not the time to be making changes like that though as there is too much of the game that is yet to be implemented, tweaked and polished.

 

Where the system does start to suck in my opinion is in team games. Particularly FFA and overcrowded TDM (you know, those two modes that are 90% of the game right now). I'll be testing some minor changes to help improve that, but they probably won't be making an appearance for another few versions yet.

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It's really an apples and oranges argument

 

Personally I think if you compare how Q3/QL ztn plays to QW/CPMA ztn, the amount of timers you need to track in the Q3 variant is way higher and as a result I think its harder to play.

 

CPMA in its initial development started out as virtually nothing more than a QW clone with Q3 weapons and strafe jump. Over time it evolved into quite a bit more than that.

 

I think seeing as a bunch of new players are bringing this up argument which essentially became a total deadlock in the Quake community is being brought up again all over, maybe it's time to re-evaluate the issue again, and ask yourself some tough questions. We have this thing, which has caused a very divided opinion over the years, that's really only in because that's how older id titles did it.

 

It seems like me and newborn a have totally opposite viewpoint on this issue, so it is what it is. Personally I think that tiered armor is good in TDM because the 50 and 100 hp armors are paper thin when you are getting shot at by 4 people or more. I don't understand why he thinks it sucks in team games.

 

What variant of Quake it comes from is not important to me. Maybe the solution is something in between, or some totally new system. The number of things where I would say Q3 Quake is best Quake is really low.

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played this today, only one thing i have to say - and i have to say it until i hammer it in your head.

 

you need to be able to pickup ALL armour, regardless if you already have a higher tier. it's not just about stacking yourself but about taking armour away from your opponent.

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played this today, only one thing i have to say - and i have to say it until i hammer it in your head.

 

you need to be able to pickup ALL armour, regardless if you already have a higher tier. it's not just about stacking yourself but about taking armour away from your opponent.

 

 

No thanks, with the movement in reflex that will just end up with the in control player picking up everything in a loop, and the out of control player rushing the other one all match to try to win back control.

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played this today, only one thing i have to say - and i have to say it until i hammer it in your head.

 

you need to be able to pickup ALL armour, regardless if you already have a higher tier. it's not just about stacking yourself but about taking armour away from your opponent.

rWfLq.gif

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played this today, only one thing i have to say - and i have to say it until i hammer it in your head.

 

you need to be able to pickup ALL armour, regardless if you already have a higher tier. it's not just about stacking yourself but about taking armour away from your opponent.

3vKJqc7.gif

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thats the point

 

@miha - srsly, only idiots do the "gif reply" anymore.

Can't really use words anymore since it has been discussed over and over why non-tiered armor doesn't work with cpm movement in a duel atleast.

 

 

 

Alright, so a quick guide about how the armors work for people who are not familiar with it from CPMA (which actually includes a fraction of CPMA players).

 

Each colored armor in Reflex offers a different amount of damage absorption. Green armor is 1:1, so if you get hit in the face with a rocket, you'll lose 50 health. Yellow protects 1:2, so you'd lose 33 health. Red protects 1:3 so you'd lose 25 health.

 

These tiers are actually balanced so there is about one good rockets difference between them. No armor, you'll be dead with a single rocket. Green armor will let you survive about 2. Yellow armor will let you survive about 3. Red armor will let you survive about 4. Combining any of those with megahealth will give you another rocket worth of not-being-dead.

 

The cant-downgrade system is also designed so that you can't just pacman armors unless you're 1) willing to do a bit of damage to yourself 2) so thoroughly in control that you're running YA / YA / RA in order and engaging in enough fights between to keep the run going (although the easy counter to this is to lay low for 25 seconds).

 

Anyway, that's why our 1v1 maps are usually based on a 1 RA / 2 YA / 1 MH loadout. Ideally, the up player controls the RA and the down player takes the YA and MH. Depending on stacks, there is either 1 or 0 rockets difference between those loadouts -- a single good shot can even things up. Which is what the down player should be looking for -- that perfect, patient, predicted moment (not a lucky zerg).

 

I agree it's not the most obvious armor system but it does work extremely well in balanced 1v1 games. If anything about the system changes, it will be aimed at making the system more obvious while keeping all of the existing balances and behaviors. Now is not the time to be making changes like that though as there is too much of the game that is yet to be implemented, tweaked and polished.

 

Where the system does start to suck in my opinion is in team games. Particularly FFA and overcrowded TDM (you know, those two modes that are 90% of the game right now). I'll be testing some minor changes to help improve that, but they probably won't be making an appearance for another few versions yet. 

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thats the point

 

@miha - srsly, only idiots do the "gif reply" anymore.

When you repeat an argument that's already been addressed, and then end it by saying "i have to say it until i hammer it in your head.", how can you think that anyone will take you seriously?

Newborn pretty much gave you a really solid and logical answer that you apparently ignored, these things weren't just decided on a whim.

No one just went and thought to themselves: "I played the game for a bit just now, and I think it should be different because of my bias and I will repeat my statement until my demands are met." without providing any explanation.

 

As the aggressive player in control, I want to trade my armor for spawnfrags to solidify my lead.

Those trades are actually quite risky even with tiered armors, 100/150 of RA vs 100/100 of YA is only 1 direct rocket shot advantage for the red armored player, push once into a defensive position and you take a direct hit, suddenly you are on equal terms as the player with 100/100, combined with the fact that the rocket you took put you massively out of position from where you wanted to be because it either bounced you further away, or it locked you into a spot.

If you have a yellow armor, and he has a green it's the same situation, you can both take 2 direct rockets, and that's just rockets now because the netcode is still not quite there.

It's the weapons and smart play that do the trick. You can completely destroy someones armor by one or two well placed rockets and turn the tide.

When the RG and LG equivalents begin to shine which will be when the netcode is fixed, you will see that the tiered armors are balanced and alright.

 

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So Newborn's idea of grab-armor, all of team gets armor is actually neat. It'd mean YA's are much easier for the out-of-control team to get. Would need other various tweaks but I think it's a pretty cool idea that'd be awesome to see expanded on.

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So Newborn's idea of grab-armor, all of team gets armor is actually neat. It'd mean YA's are much easier for the out-of-control team to get. Would need other various tweaks but I think it's a pretty cool idea that'd be awesome to see expanded on.

 

Honestly, I really like the idea of team armors, just as some kind of semi-powerups with longer respawn timer (maybe a minute), so that they could be used in combination with regular armors too.

Variety of maps would pop up pretty soon thanks to creative mapmakers, maybe something like a 2v2 map which would have 1 team RA, 2 YA 1 Mega, or bigger TDM maps with 2 Team YAs etc. as well as regular powerups, CTF maps with a team YA per base + center powerup, and so on...

 

Obviously, they need to have a sound cue on the players of the team that got the armor, kind of like how personal medkits had in Quake 3 for individual users. I think it might get a little silly if someone were to silently get 150 RA in a fight where he wouldve been finished off by a lesser damage per hit weapon otherwise, because you'd instantly swap out to a higher damaging weapon, or back off if you heard him get the armor.

 

In games like these, you can have some things that are seemingly imbalanced be fixed by the map pool, so I'm up for it.

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