Jump to content
Claymation

Tiered Armor re-balance?

Recommended Posts

I don't exactly know how much damage the different armor tiers block, but red armor is way too strong in my opinion. When I'm shooting at someone who just picked up RA, with any weapon, I feel like I'm trying to shoot a tank with a BB gun. Shards and Green armor are pretty weak, but they provide at least some protection. YA protects just the perfect amount IMO, making its wearer protected but still kill-able. Red Armor just kind of makes you invulnerable, I feel. Having RA makes steamrolling as a player in control much easier, while at the same time making it extraordinarily difficult to come back as a player who is not in control. This imbalance makes duels significantly less fun to play, as matches are usually totally one-sided, and are decided within the first two minutes. I'm not trying to blame the snowball-y nature of the game entirely on the way that armor is balanced, but it is one of the factors that cause it. I also understand that gaps in skill can cause this, but if a player is even somewhat good at locking down the map, it's almost impossible to knock a dent in their impenetrable fortress of armor and health, causing the score ratio to get blown into proportions where the losing player has absolutely no chance to make anything even resembling a comeback.

TL;DR red armor op pls nerf

EDIT: Tiered armor is fine. The hitsounds are broken though. They are not a good representation of how much damage you're doing to your opponent. Just wanted to clear that up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally the armor reductions are 75% RA, 50% YA, and 25% GA. They've been like that forever, so I'm not sure what you're expecting in terms of a rebalance for duel without shifting the balance significantly. Being in-control provides you with a lot of leeway but the difference isn't much more than an additional shot between RA and YA. Keep in mind that with bare bones netcode and no lag compensation it's significantly harder to hit shots and deal damage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally the armor reductions are 75% RA, 50% YA, and 25% GA. They've been like that forever, so I'm not sure what you're expecting in terms of a rebalance for duel without shifting the balance significantly. Being in-control provides you with a lot of leeway but the difference isn't much more than an additional shot between RA and YA. Keep in mind that with bare bones netcode and no lag compensation it's significantly harder to hit shots and deal damage.

I'm fully aware that the netcode isn't finished. And 75% reduction is a little ridiculous imo. I think that tiered armor is great (on paper at least) in modes other than duel, where having protection against multiple targets at once is extremely useful.

 

 

What maps are you playing on?

It shouldn't matter what map it is, to be honest. But to answer your question I've dueled a lot on cpm3, cpm22, and some qw remakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm fully aware that the netcode isn't finished. And 75% reduction is a little ridiculous imo. I think that tiered armor is great (on paper at least) in modes other than duel, where having protection against multiple targets at once is extremely useful.

 

I'm not sure what to tell you, the only evidence you've provided for why you think it's too strong is anecdotal rather than specific damage ranges that we could calculate like "I shot this guy in the face with 3 rockets while he only had RA and didn't die". Duel is inteaded to be very slanted when you're playing out of control, that's just the nature of the game. One un-contested red armor can be the difference between contesting and stealing mega or giving up 5 frags.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It shouldn't matter what map it is, to be honest. But to answer your question I've dueled a lot on cpm3, cpm22, and some qw remakes.

It definitely matters what map you're playing on. The map can be horribly balanced in favour of the in control player.

 

 This imbalance makes duels significantly less fun to play, as matches are usually totally one-sided, and are decided within the first two minutes.

 

This can be said about certain bad maps as well (of which Reflex has plenty of at the moment). Also the gameplay/balance in general is mostly broken right now because of the netcode, so in it's current state you may actually be correct, but when a more advanced netcode is implemented, the game will play almostly exactly like cpm, which everyone knows is fine.

 

Wait for the netcode to be implemented before complaining about balance. Most of the good cpm players are sticking to cpm for now because they view Reflex as unplayable due to bad netcode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would agree the armor system is a little bit diffrent than what I am use to. Though I am more use to playing Nexuiz where the armor basically is a second life bar. So this whole reduction thing is quite hard for me to grasp. Though it still seems you die from 4 rocket hits like you would have if you had 200 or the amount you spawn with.

 

So I still have to question if armor is really that effective in the current systems in Reflex. I mean yeah you take a lot more damage without it, but even keeping 5 amor is still as effective as 100 and only slightly worse than 150 or 200. Which is sort of a joke when you think about it. Cuase there is a huge difference between 5 and 100 and a much smaller difference between "100 and 150" and "150 and 200".

 

So it might be better to change the formula from such ridged varibles and make it that your risitance is pogressive though the ammount you have so your armor does not simply stay red till dead. (even if you lose all of your armor if you collect the green +5 they still count as red armor)

 

Also would be a good time to add a bit of ballancing into armor in general as armor should slow down players. (even if it is a small and minute amount) It would add a nice level of stratigy as armor is never 100% good thing and has its ups and downs sort of like how quad damage aoe will kill the user too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what to tell you, the only evidence you've provided for why you think it's too strong is anecdotal rather than specific damage ranges that we could calculate like "I shot this guy in the face with 3 rockets while he only had RA and didn't die". Duel is inteaded to be very slanted when you're playing out of control, that's just the nature of the game. One un-contested red armor can be the difference between contesting and stealing mega or giving up 5 frags.

While I don't have the time to give specific numbers (however many rockets/bolts/stakes/etc it would take to kill a fully stacked opponent) right at this time, what I'm trying to say is that it's very, very hard to play against an opponent who is constantly stacked, especially on the more popular, and smaller duel maps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also would be a good time to add a bit of ballancing into armor in general as armor should slow down players. (even if it is a small and minute amount) It would add a nice level of stratigy as armor is never 100% good thing and has its ups and downs sort of like how quad damage aoe will kill the user too.

 

I'm not too sure about that one, but it is an interesting idea, I'll give you that.

 

 

It definitely matters what map you're playing on. The map can be horribly balanced in favour of the in control player.

I suppose that's true.

 

 

This can be said about certain bad maps as well (of which Reflex has plenty of at the moment). Also the gameplay/balance in general is mostly broken right now because of the netcode, so in it's current state you may actually be correct, but when a more advanced netcode is implemented, the game will play almostly exactly like cpm, which everyone knows is fine.

 

Wait for the netcode to be implemented before complaining about balance. Most of the good cpm players are sticking to cpm for now because they view Reflex as unplayable due to bad netcode.

So do you think that what makes duels imbalanced is bad map design? I can agree with this. Like I said before, I'm aware that the netcode isn't finished, but I just feel like even when I can hit shots consistently, I'm doing no damage. This may also be because of the hitsounds, which get higher pitched as you do less damage. Maybe it's scaled different from what I'm used to? :s

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just out of interest, have you won any duels where you take control at the beginning and don't lose it for the whole game? Or are you complaining because you keep losing in this manner?

 

I don't know how familiar with CPM duel you are, but even with a moderate difference in player skill, games WILL be like this. That is kind of the nature of CPM duel. So maybe you just haven't found opponents that are of a similar level to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't have the time to give specific numbers (however many rockets/bolts/stakes/etc it would take to kill a fully stacked opponent) right at this time, what I'm trying to say is that it's very, very hard to play against an opponent who is constantly stacked, especially on the more popular, and smaller duel maps.

 

I don't see a problem here, that's the nature of duel. Tiered armor means the opponent with RA can't grab the YA from the out of control player unless they drop below a certain threshold, and by grabbing it instead make themselves weaker. If your opponent is constantly stacked, he's out playing you.

 

 

So I still have to question if armor is really that effective in the current systems in Reflex. I mean yeah you take a lot more damage without it, but even keeping 5 amor is still as effective as 100 and only slightly worse than 150 or 200. Which is sort of a joke when you think about it.

 

I think you're misunderstanding how the reduction works, the armor absorbs either 75%, 50%, or 25% of the damage taken and removes that percentage of your armor rather than health, and the remaining damage you take directly to your HP. This includes when it knocks off all armor, the remaining damage goes to HP. There's a significant difference between 200/100/5 armor and what color they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just out of interest, have you won any duels where you take control at the beginning any don't lose it for the whole game? Or are you complaining because you keep losing in this manner?

I don't know how familiar with CPM duel you are, but even with a moderate difference in player skill, games WILL be like this. That is kind of the nature of CPM duel. So maybe you just haven't found opponents that are of a similar level to you.

I have won quite a few duels like that actually, although in general I lose more often than not. I wouldn't consider myself to be a high tier player by any means, but I'm also far from new. I'm sort of mid-tier at best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you're misunderstanding how the reduction works, the armor absorbs either 75%, 50%, or 25% of the damage taken and removes that percentage of your armor rather than health, and the remaining damage you take directly to your HP. This includes when it knocks off all armor, the remaining damage goes to HP. There's a significant difference between 200/100/5 armor and what color they are.

If that's how it works, then I think a large part of what makes my weapons feel so weak is that the hit sounds are only accounting for the amount of HP I'm taking away, rather than the combined damage to both armor and health. Boy do I feel dumb :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

imho, set damage reduction at 66% on all armours.

 

right now RA is a whopping 150 armor points. YA is 50 afaik and GA is 25. while both will protect you from a rail hit, you'll be left at 0 armor in both cases.

 

reduction at 75% means the RA becomes even more valuable, since hits will lower armour faster (and generally health is easier to recoup).

 

also, make it possible to pick up all armours, even if you already have a higher tier, just to take it away from yoru enemy.

(but i shoudl mention that i won't play tiered because i dont like it)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

imho, set damage reduction at 66% on all armours.

 

right now RA is a whopping 150 armor points. YA is 50 afaik and GA is 25. while both will protect you from a rail hit, you'll be left at 0 armor in both cases.

 

reduction at 75% means the RA becomes even more valuable, since hits will lower armour faster (and generally health is easier to recoup).

 

also, make it possible to pick up all armours, even if you already have a higher tier, just to take it away from yoru enemy.

(but i shoudl mention that i won't play tiered because i dont like it)

 

RA is 150

YA is 100

GA is 50

 

I'm not sure what reasoning you could have that having not having a tiered armor system would be good. It's incredibly simple and rewards good positioning and punishes bad positioning. Having a flat protection and being able to shill armor from around the map on stack is stupid and will just lead to boring stalemates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RA is 150

YA is 100

GA is 50

 

I'm not sure what reasoning you could have that having not having a tiered armor system would be good. It's incredibly simple and rewards good positioning and punishes bad positioning. Having a flat protection and being able to shill armor from around the map on stack is stupid and will just lead to boring stalemates.

 

Shill doesn't mean what you think it means in this context, Ben, but yeah the armor tiering prevents the guy rolling with stack from stealing any chance of his opponent getting stack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RA is 150

YA is 100

GA is 50

 

I'm not sure what reasoning you could have that having not having a tiered armor system would be good. It's incredibly simple and rewards good positioning and punishes bad positioning. Having a flat protection and being able to shill armor from around the map on stack is stupid and will just lead to boring stalemates.

i think that QL being played at Dreamhack without tiered armour is enough proof that it's an unnecessary gimmick. also, i don't think you understand the game if you think "stalemate" is something that could happen; it takes two seconds to go down 240hp with 3 rail shots, which is not that uncommon of an occurrence. stacking 100 armour on top of some shard is still better than stacking 50, so there's still a point to getting the RA instead of the YA.

 

but again, since this is a gamemode i will not be playing, my opinions don't matter too much. i'm just giving you my 2c.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't exactly know how much damage the different armor tiers block, but red armor is way too strong in my opinion. When I'm shooting at someone who just picked up RA, with any weapon, I feel like I'm trying to shoot a tank with a BB gun. Shards and Green armor are pretty weak, but they provide at least some protection. YA protects just the perfect amount IMO, making its wearer protected but still kill-able. Red Armor just kind of makes you invulnerable, I feel. Having RA makes steamrolling as a player in control much easier, while at the same time making it extraordinarily difficult to come back as a player who is not in control. This imbalance makes duels significantly less fun to play, as matches are usually totally one-sided, and are decided within the first two minutes. I'm not trying to blame the snowball-y nature of the game entirely on the way that armor is balanced, but it is one of the factors that cause it. I also understand that gaps in skill can cause this, but if a player is even somewhat good at locking down the map, it's almost impossible to knock a dent in their impenetrable fortress of armor and health, causing the score ratio to get blown into proportions where the losing player has absolutely no chance to make anything even resembling a comeback.

 

 

TL;DR red armor op pls nerf

I hope nobody balances shit according to noobs getting roflstomped by things.

Duels are about item control. Item control is about movement, map control etc. Just because your skill doesn't allow you to make reasonable comebacks doesn't mean they're impossible. A good player knows what it requires to get the momentum rolling your way.

I'm sorry if I sound like an asshole, but I'm just feeling infuriated by this bullshit. The armor system as a whole as seen in Reflex has been in CPMA for like almost ten years (someone correct me if I'm wrong). It has satisfied the needs of the highest tier play of possible in CPM. And then some guy in mushroom tier comes and says things are imba because he can't play at a reasonable level and obviously didn't even understand how the armor reduction system works. This is not a personal attack, but just wondering is this how things work nowadays for you kids? Playing one of the hardest fps games out there and before you even hit the 20 hour mark you've decided you can make delicate balance suggestions from the experience you've gathered. Crying in forums about OP things when you just have the basics of the game mastered? Something picked up from the cancerous LoL and Dota communities? When you can't win, just cry in the forums about OP things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think that QL being played at Dreamhack without tiered armour is enough proof that it's an unnecessary gimmick. also, i don't think you understand the game if you think "stalemate" is something that could happen; it takes two seconds to go down 240hp with 3 rail shots, which is not that uncommon of an occurrence. stacking 100 armour on top of some shard is still better than stacking 50, so there's still a point to getting the RA instead of the YA.

 

but again, since this is a gamemode i will not be playing, my opinions don't matter too much. i'm just giving you my 2c.

I think that QL being played at Dreamhack without tiered armour is a proof that QL is played with vanilla quake movement. You know, which differs a lot from CPM movement. It's fucking slow and boring. That's why they don't have to use tiered armor system. You can't just run around and pick up every armor like you could with cpm physics. That's why it wouldn't work in Reflex, you could just run around and pick every armor available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that QL being played at Dreamhack without tiered armour is a proof that QL is played with vanilla quake movement. You know, which differs a lot from CPM movement. It's fucking slow and boring. That's why they don't have to use tiered armor system. You can't just run around and pick up every armor like you could with cpm physics. That's why it wouldn't work in Reflex, you could just run around and pick every armor available.

 

The thing is, QL isn't played at Dreamhack and hasn't been since the Winter 2013 event, so it was a poor argument in the first place, and even if it was, it would still be a poor argument because there are many more differences between cpm and ql than just tiered armour.  Personally I feel that not having tiered armour just reduces quake duel to a glorified 3d pacman.

 

The op is somewhat right however that the in control player can just retard rush for a whole match and get rewarded for it, I know I'll get some flak for this but it's the same in cpm and it desperately needs to be fixed imo.  The reason that I feel this can happen is that the knockback and splash radius from rockets is too low, and maps are generally a little too open, which makes it extremely difficult to provide a deterrent to being rushed unless you're at the top of your game.  Effective rushing should be earned, not handed to you on a plate.  This would be a good way of improving the situation without dumbing down the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

right now the rules and physics are so close to cpm that I would say defer to the people with experience in cpm. the armor is completely identical is it not? but the weapons/balance are what is different so I'd say figure that out first. but I feel like newborn & team have a pretty strong knowledge of what they want and what works and fundamental ruleset changes at least for duels arent gonna come from suggestions in forum. as a relative newbie, I would want the people who play at the highest tier to confirm that the ruleset works well there. we should all want that because its like insurance for us that as we get better the game wont start to get boring suddenly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope nobody balances shit according to noobs getting roflstomped by things.

Duels are about item control. Item control is about movement, map control etc. Just because your skill doesn't allow you to make reasonable comebacks doesn't mean they're impossible. A good player knows what it requires to get the momentum rolling your way.

I'm sorry if I sound like an asshole, but I'm just feeling infuriated by this bullshit. The armor system as a whole as seen in Reflex has been in CPMA for like almost ten years (someone correct me if I'm wrong). It has satisfied the needs of the highest tier play of possible in CPM. And then some guy in mushroom tier comes and says things are imba because he can't play at a reasonable level and obviously didn't even understand how the armor reduction system works. This is not a personal attack, but just wondering is this how things work nowadays for you kids? Playing one of the hardest fps games out there and before you even hit the 20 hour mark you've decided you can make delicate balance suggestions from the experience you've gathered. Crying in forums about OP things when you just have the basics of the game mastered? Something picked up from the cancerous LoL and Dota communities? When you can't win, just cry in the forums about OP things?

First of all, I came here to complain about something that I thought was imba, but actually just feels strong due to a sound system that is not finished yet. Second, I now realize that I made the mistake of posting a complaint first, instead of starting a discussion on armor and general balance, and then asking how it is balanced(perhaps even a poll would have been appropriate). Third, you're assuming I'm completely new, which is far from the truth(in reflex/CPM, at least). While I'm not the best player on the planet, I can play relatively competently. I just felt like the armor was way too strong because of the fact that the only way I could tell how much damage I'm doing, if any, was making it sound as if I was only doing 25 damage with direct rockets or bolts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×